It Ain’t Over, Til It’s Over

By Mark Evans | Published: November 2, 2009

Here’s a guest post from Jeff Wiener, who runs Digitcom, a telecom equipment reseller. Jeff also writes The Telecom Blog, one of Canada’s leading telecom-focused.

Yogi Berra Oddly enough, there still seems to be a steady stream of press releases, product update notices, and new wins for Nortel which can be found on their web site (click here)

Why ?

I understand that many firms have an extremely vested interest in Nortel hardware, need software updates or some new features, and a fork-lift upgrade is too cost prohibitive. But new wins ? Why would a company, given the choice among Cisco, Avaya, Mitel, Asterisk and so many other viable brands, choose to deploy a NEW Nortel solution ?

And then the next question is – why is Nortel still introducing new product updates for some of these products?

Nortel is in a precarious position at the moment. They need to continue developing products, updates, and position new sales opportunities in light of the pending sale of the optical networking and carrier Ethernet divisions, and on the enterprise side, the sale to Avaya could, or might not officially close. It’s not a done deal until it’s done. They need to continue developing products to keep the company and division sale prospects alive.

I’m still surprised that from a competitive perspective, companies are still entertaining new Nortel systems. Where at one time I would see Nortel positioned in every opportunity, I now see them 1 in 5 times. But I’m still surprised that: there are companies considering new Nortel systems, and even more, that there are North American dealers that still only position Nortel in new opportunities. What should an exclusive legacy Nortel voice or data dealer do at this point ? I suspect that many are hanging on stubbornly until the very end. But why, I haven’t quite figured that out.

In addition, Nortel is still sending out email notices with new product announcements, and oddly enough, new training classes for their products. Again, I guess there are dealers that need to get their older legacy technicians trained.

The irony is, the company is dead. They are closing shop. Yet, over the last 2 weeks they made 12 announcements. As Yogi Berra said “It ain’t over till it’s over”.

This entry was posted in Financials, Technology and tagged avaya, bankruptcy, Nortel. Bookmark the permalink. Trackbacks are closed, but you can post a comment.

less

Do you have the talent to help drive our success? Explore the advantages that come with working for a global internet and communications powerhouse.

http://www.nortel.com/employment/

All (9)
Brazil/Sao Paulo (1)
India/Bangalore (6)
India/Gurgaon (2)

Cue the collective whimper of submission symbolizing all them other telecoms.

90,000/9 ten years ago maybe wasn't all that, but, buddy, 30,000/9 has seen the hiring ratio increased threefold within a year.

30% is a bad number when Cisco uses it by sucking that much more juice from all nations' power grids than their conscientiously leading competitor, Nortel.
NortelEmp

In the documentary "By the People: The Election of Barack Obama " there is a long close-up on a Nortel phone.

Bet the Nortel marketing folks have no idea.
Darth_Zman

CVAS as pointed out on some comments is a viable business. I work for CVAS in sales. My customer is buying new solutions, new software, strategies based around this for 2010 and beyond.

Why? Pragmatism. My customer and those around the globe know that CVAS is going to stay around whether I go in with a Nortel Business card or some other label I will still be selling and showing my customers how they make money from our market leading solutions.

I hope the buyer who buys CVAS recognises the products, the people and most of all our loyal customers.

Our software release messaging, products solutions, wins are business as usual (maybe not made simple) - keeping customers loyal.
Nortelian

Oh no, you've claimed to be a CVAS sales rep. You've just lost all credibility with protosphere!

I agree with you though. CVAS customers are buying and those that haven't have been waiting patiently on the sidelines for some certainty around the business. Contrary to what many on this board would say, our carrier voice customers have been & continue to be loyal, not dropping like flies as many would claim.
Darth_Zman

water off a ducks back for a sales guy....
Nortel watcher

Once some of our folks transfer over to the buyer companies like E///, Avaya, etc. it will be interesting to learn how salary levels look before and after assuming the same job title is maintained.

I think NT folks going to Avaya will likely see lower offers than those going to E///.
NortelTragedy

I know at least three admins going to Ericsson ... zero technical, engineering or operations experience. Others are old CVAS managers with no wireless experience, much less CDMA. It's all who one knows. E/// has much to learn about what they've purchased.
zeroman

shuffling through the revolving door.
protosphere

I hope they still aren't pushing this energy tax thing =)
Panhead

Does anyone posting on this site know the first thing about selling dial tone? Mark, what's your background anyway? -- a marketing, communications and social media consultant.

Maybe Nortel is still winning new customers and expansion of existing systems because their products are just a better fit for the particular customers network. Or maybe not. This has nothing to do with the p*ss poor leadership they've had over the past decade, but speaks more to the talented engineers and designers who were once at Nortel (some, but not too many, are still hangin' around).
protosphere

so many new IDs... yet same message.
GoProto

What IS a panhead?? =)
NortelTragedy

Harley-Davidson motorcycle engine from '48-'65 ...
GoProto

Thanks.
less

' course Nortel invrariably conjures an image of the panhead screw: http://www.jensonusa.com/product/bn/BN408Z00_____5X10.jpg
GoProto

Nice, Less. Thanks for the smile ... ; o )
nortelex

Yes but even great products need support.....so should I be worry about buying something from a dead company?
GoProto

No, just buying something from a dead person..
nortelex

Yup it aint over till it's over....but for Nortel, it's like the last 30sec of the game, down by two goals, short a man, face off in your own zone with the goalie pulled.

Good luck.
justcurious2

Actually, this ain't over till it's over works for baseball because you can continue scoring forever as long as you don't get the 3rd batter out... However, if you're playing hockey or football, it is a run against the clock....
Still_waiting

Or like a hail Mary pass from your own 40 yard line with no time on the clock and 4 points down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3ykWbu2Gl0&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Just saying.... America loves an underdog .......
tiredofitall

Supposed to be Dec. 7.
GoProto

Dec 7th.. isn't that Pearl Harbor Day??
zeroman

a day in infamy Dec 7, 2009.
GoProto

When does the Fat Lady Sing on the Enterprise deal with Avaya??
less

Heres a fitting celebratory song from "Ottawan", who, like the late Nortel, weren't from Ottawa per se, but rather a French disco duo in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT0CASRagsM&feature=related

The song's name comes from the lyrics in its chorus, in which a woman is claimed to be 'DISCO', with each letter of the word standing for a certain quality

She is D disastrous
She is I impossible
She is S superficial
She is C crazy, crazy
She is O oh, oh, oh

Nortel is disco.
GoProto

"She's a Super Freak, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah, She's A Super Freak, Super Freaky"
NortelWife

well, it's over for my husband. today I got to open the nice letter that Nortel sent notifying him that he is out of a job Jan 1st. Geez I thought at least his boss would tell him and not some crappy letter from HR.
scalppeeler

That's too bad.
Sending a letter in the mail.
Is that legal.
Was he aware the axe was coming because
he did not receive an offering letter from a buyer.
That's awful.
less

It certainly cant be more cost-effective than firing someone in an unlit corridor. Methinks Joel needs to grab a certain wasteful secretary by the face.....
NortelWife

Actually now I'm finding out it may be a mistake and I am seriously pissed. I think all of the Enterprise people in Richardson got this letter, but I'm not sure. it was a surprise b/c we had been led to believe that his particular dept. would all be going to Avaya. We shall see.
less

It has to be an error as no Ch11 filing is imminent.
NortelTragedy

Why don't you go slap Joel Hackney around for your trouble ... he sure deserves it. He's assaults women, you know: http://www.allbusiness.com/company-activities-management/company-structures-ownership/11894870-1.html

"CEO Mike Zafirovski reassured employees that the company remains committed to ethics and integrity after its top North Carolina official, Joel Hackney, admitted that he grabbed a UNC-CH student's face and threatened her."
GoProto

Yep, reassurance from the Big Zero was always so damn reassuring..
scalppeeler

Goes to show you what one can pull off when greed and deceit are the primary motivating factors. The board of no direction set the table for Zebra. They probably interviewed many capable executives but none of them would buy the ruse. Z walked into that room with manley probably distracted writing his own autobiography and doing his hair and then wrote his own ticket. If the board had but ONE capable leader with any kind of intuition, foresight, technical know how or smarts guys like Z, owens and dunn would not have been hired. They should have learned their mistakes after roth and chandran but the board was incompetent for many years and only got by due to all the leads nortel had in many technologies at one time. Mike knew when he walked into that board of idiots that he could do what he wanted so long as he just talked the talk and walked the walk. Substance or results did not matter. Same with joelle. Just tell the muppet balconier masters that all was well and they didn't have to get involved in anything. Everything was under control and "failure to respect my authority" would result in a south park revolution. The muppets were all ears, and since they understood nothing but collecting a cheque and attending toastmasters they were like fish in a barrel for mikey.
It takes no character to survive and thrive in that environment. The board made sure they picked the right men for that job.
GoProto

Yep, Zero provided the missing piece to the "Greed Knows No Bounds" Jigsaw puzzle.. he seems to have been just the right fit..
Desk Jockey

Z, Hack and the rest of the GEniuses have got to be the biggest disgrace to ever run a company, let alone one as big as Nortel was.

Their tenure would almost be hilarious were it not for the suffering and damage they caused to so many.
protosphere

hype and hot air is entrenched in Nortel's culture of deceit and deception; press releases are a natural way of life with these pathological liars

...imagine if they didn't during this critical and sensitive transition to further jeopardize already declining customers on steroids and the precarious sales of their business units

They always struggled to maintain revenues while neglecting earnings. I wonder how much they fire selling product for these days to get every penny from every scrap then boast any sale they can (like they did 3rd world railways /R-GSM orders)...some things would never change there until thankfully gone.
Nortelian

Nortel's technology in many areas is still the best and most loyal customers understand that it won't really be going away. They continue to lead in some markets (carrier voice) with no real competition and yes.... new orders for new systems do continue to come in. Although it is not a good situation, the press paints a much worse picture of the situation than actually exists.

You may throw stones & flame me for saying that but I sell for Nortel everyday and although it's not easy, Nortel still has great technology and leads many markets. That is not just going to disappear.

I'm a salesman for them so take my comments for what they're worth. I'm just telling you what I'm seeing on the ground.... where very few of those who write about Nortel have ever been.
protosphere

"the press paints a much worse picture of the situation than actually exists."

They have said this all along until folding so it looks like the press was right.
May I suggest instead that Nortel paints a much better picture of the situation than actually exists.
freqmgr

I"m happy if you can find new clients or continue to sell to current clients. At least from a wireless point of view Nortel effectively shut down "growing" that business in 2008, after a major ramp down in effort in 2007. Maybe planning for bankruptcy? After 14 January the wireless leader made several statements: 1) Nortel is too small to compete in China and India (if not there then where/) and 2) Nortel had no LTE strategy. The latter was apparent even in 2008 while the former reflects a report that Nortel paid someone to generate. Good luck, but Nortel has for some years been working towards a goal - liquidation. Of course while providing bonus payments for the ELT.
Nortelian

Well I'm not in wireless so I can't really speak for that group but I can tell you that within the past 30 days, I received an order from a new customer who has never bought from Nortel before, a pretty sizable order at that. Nortel continues to win business, and when (if) the stalking horse bidder & auction dates are announced for CVAS, I expect to see an increase in orders as a result of pent up demand.
protosphere

I do not believe a single word you say now.
I would say no offense but would feel guilty if I projected any misleading.
Nortelian

Your comments continue to be clouded by your hate of Nortel corporate & the BOD, I can't blame you for that but you do a great disservice to the rank & file who have done nothing but give their entire careers to Nortel trying to foster continued success.

I really don't care if you believe me or not. If you're not out there talking with customers daily as I am, you have no credibility with issues of market & CSAT. Nortel corp screwed all of us. Those of us who still work in the divisions continue to work hard with the hope of continuing to have jobs & careers. I lost nothing financially with this mess. I was able to move all of my financial assets out from under the Nortel umbrella a few years ago when I had a chance.

Sorry for your bitterness, facts are however that I work for a Nortel division and am in sales, and see every day that there is a viable market for the products & services that I sell. Your choice to believe what I say or not. BTW, if you ask any other Nortel salesman in my division, they'll tell you the same. Most of our customers are just waiting on the stalking horse bidder to be announced so that they have some certainty on the fate of the division.
zeroman

there maybe some sales people who work hard at getting customers. but there are also many who only are trying to show a lot of orders in the pipeline to transition to the new company to keep these going.
protosphere

"if you ask any other Nortel salesman in my division, they'll tell you the same."

you mean salesperson or salespeople unless they all male don't you?

My comments have not been clouded over the years at all.

It is rare anyone won, like you by pulling funds earlier too, while rallying future demand today even though they are closing shop and it is over.

See why I question you are at a sales capacity as you chant future demand as customers drop off like flies than wait in the wind?

Most customers are gone or going and not waiting for a thing, unless they bag-hold technology like their largest customer Verizon. Even Avaya refuses to sell below cost to them like Nortel did no matter how much they tantrum. Its over.

I think you are a reseller worrying about the product's future at best and not a salesperson with Nortel at all. I may be wrong but this is what I believe.

I sure don't think you are a salesperson or "salesman". Your personifying who sells Nortel product is evident above boasting you won.

Nor do I believe customers lurk in the horizon awaiting a buyer than same old Nortel propaganda, different day.
Nortelian

Cite Avaya all you want. I work on the carrier side of the business. You're the one at a loss my friend because you're out of touch with it. I have a global ID, and have worked in NT sales since the 80's. Still there. I change my Norpass pwd twice a year and file my expenses via EVS weekly. If I gave you my name you could look me up in OSM. Oh, and I just made my 2010 benefit selections using employee self service.

You know nothing of what our carrier customer's sentiments are. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that Nortel does not work through resellers in the carrier voice business. We sell direct and maintain long established customer relationships.

You behave like a troll who has never been face to face with a customer. My customers aren't dropping like flies. My customers have been patiently waiting for a stalking horse bidder to be announced. There is pent up demand for Nortel carrier voice switching that will be realized once the bidder & auction dates are announced.

You seem to like to paint all of Nortel with the same broad brush, ignoring the distinctions between carrier, enterprise, and corporate functions. Doesn't really matter how many posts you may have on AAN, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the carrier business. Doubt my status as a sales employee of Nortel all you want..... makes no difference to me.
XPM_guy

Nortelian -

I too am on the inside desperately looking for the CVAS auction process to start. And while I am not in sales, I too see the same pent up demand for our products and solutions. Whether you believe the hype or not, CVAS is delivering a superior set of solutions for many carriers, especially in the area of upgrading TDM to VoIP.

If we can just get the CVAS sale underway, our customers will know we have a future (preferably under new, less clueless management) and will pony up with orders for our proven technology.

Thanks for all you are doing to keep the CVAS sales coming in!
wasthere

I agree with you guys, Nortel has some good products that represents a nice opportunity for their competitors.
For example,CVAS, MEN, Passport multiswitch, are probably all viable units ..... if they can only leave Nortel's hands ! Unfortunately selling any Nortel's asset seems as complicated as managing them !!
protosphere

They will no longer be Nortel product. And good luck making money with them after so many cuts already.

All Nortel had was an impressive customer base at one point, even that is gone, merged, or sold to below cost anyways for whatever the new buys might feel they can value add into this.
less

People who know Nortel won't automatically disappear with Nortel but they're not in high demand, either, and haven't been able to dictate a whole lot of terms.
GoProto

What is all this talk about recent sales, customer demand, blah blah blah.. who cares? It's ridiculous. It's over Folks.. Move -on, stop grasping at pathetic statements , whoever they may come from, press, customers, aliens, etc.
Less- i trust your outlook in general, do you really think anything constructive can or will be gained from talking up an all but defunct extinct dinosaur of a company, or am i being cynical?
less

Call me cynical but I don't see much value in sales touting "she's still a Chrysler under the hood" either.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/25/report-chrysler-financial-to-wind-down-by-2011-executive-pay/

I'm curious as to how sales intends to justify them should a scant few of these new but already-proven-superior Nortel products handle like, say, Windows Vista by Microsoft, the recognized global leader in OS?

Will they wax nostaglic, blaming inferior namebrands Avaya, Ciena, etc. for diluting their Nortel product, for lacking the expertise to evolve it and therefore jealously treating it like a bastard stepchild? Surely not.

I'd replace the cocky "This is old-school Nortel stuff" pitch with "Avaya recognized its value to customers and decided to support this product and its ongoing evolution together. We, Avaya employees, stand behind our Avaya products."

Ah, sure, blame Avaya for your job loss.
GoProto

I'd replace the cocky "This is old-school Nortel stuff" pitch with "Avaya recognized its value to customers and decided to support this product and its ongoing evolution together. We, Avaya employees, stand behind our Avaya products."
-------------------------------------
Yes, agreed.. well isn't this exactly what did happen? Whether it was a prudent move by Avaya remains to be seen, but they certainly do intend to bring value and build on a future ~ a new concept for Nortel employees , current and ex, to contemplate.. if they so choose.
tooyoungtoretire

INortelian, I agree with you. I am part of the CVAS team..
We have big orders coming in all the time for new installs. I have been with Nortel (Literally) most my life and an so saddenned by what has become of this once great company. I am hopefully CVAS will have a buyer soon.
protosphere

did you make money pulling out funds earlier too?
Nortelian

CVAS will be a great business for whoever buys it. Number 1 in their space (60%+ share in North America alone), profitable, and no debt. People should not lose sight of the fact that it's Nortel corporate who screwed the pooch. Some of the divisions (like CVAS) represent good profitable business' and will be a great deal for somebody.

I have been with Nortel for more than 2 decades (going back to the Northern Telecom days) and have a great deal of sadness over what the BOD & their hacks have done to us.
protosphere

please, tell me you don't speak with your clients in that manner =)
Casual_Observer

i don't think announcements matter in Nortel's case. It was always about profits which they could never generate on a consistent basis. One of the many reasons Nortel couldn't make it is because they always spent more than they made in profit.
bankrupt_bob

They also announced they weren't announcing bankruptcy... until they announced it.
GoProto

Nice one bb, very nice ..
vladhed

It's pretty simple, really. Despite the fact that the company called "Nortel" is dead the products and the IP and talent behind them are in many cases superior to what Nortel's competition is offering and hence will live on.

The confidence is that all this will at some point be picked up by someone who will continue to exploit the investment that Nortel has put into these products and continue to support and even improve upon them.
zeroman

that I agree on.
whopperscan

I just went to the link highlighted for news events of wins and there was nothing there at all :-))
Carriers were still putting through orders for contracts on current (pre-chapt 11) projects & suppport. But from what i've heard from old nortel colleagues around the world, most also shut off the tap for any new project orders, many even before chapt 11 was announced. "we'll keep ordering for what we have with you. And we're happy for you to tender on new projects, in the hope you come out of chapt 11 in some form soon. But we can't risk awarding new project orders to Nortel at all until then." No surprises really. On Enterprise, I hear they're meeting (very heavily revised) sales targets lately, in some places at least.
As for new releases, it's part of being an ongoing concern. The market expects new releases. Would be even more damaging to stop it.
Lookahead

First, I am showing you a latest example of Nortel new product is ordered by a customer:

"Porirua City Council Raises Service Levels with a New Unified Communications Solution from Nortel
Residents and Staff will Reap the Rewards with Faster Services and Improved Communications
October 29, 2009",

then almost every week, you would see the sales news for Nortel new products, just giving a few examples:

"Virgin Media Deploys Nortel 40G Submarine Solution for Irish Undersea Link
40G Submarine Capability Quadruples Bandwidth
September 14, 2009"

"Telefonica Selects LG-Nortel for Digital Telephony Solution
Digital Communications Service Now Available to Businesses throughout Brazil
September 08, 2009"

there are many more small to medium size contracts not even mentioned here.
whopperscan

Yeah that's Enterprise... where sales do continue, although a much lower levels that before chapt 11. To be fair, it's a credit to those involved that they could win sales at all. But nevertheless, they are Enteprise... high volume, relatively low value, high cost in needing large numbers of staff, low profit...
less

I've offered to install Nortel stuff in TN with no success by adding that I can install it but couldn't guarantee that it will readily work without support.

So long as nobody else files any more Ch 11s on us midway thru..
zeroman

how do you know these are latest announcements. could be for older wins just never announced. press releases also do not happen instantly. they take a lot of time to draft, get permissions and release.
Lookahead

Those were happening on October, 2009 period, just show you one of them:

"Nortel Enhances Healthcare Networks to Improve the Patient Experience

October 12, 2009"
less

With less ex Nortel employees able to see their docs its improved indeed...
zeroman

yes I can see that but my question is how do you know this opportunity or wins happened in October 2009. They could have been from previous sales or just a general marketing release. It says nothng about a sale or being selected either.

I also noticed tons of press releases for CVAS and think its mostly related to desperation setting in to get a buyer.

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