Nortel’s LTD Victims

To someone on LTD who is so disabled that they cannot even entertain the idea of getting a job, when they are so busy just existing, that someone else claiming to be equally on LTD is even looking for a job, is so disgusting. Oh, you feel discouraged, pout pout, whine, whine? Reality Check! You are so, so darn lucky to have the capacity to even just talk about actually getting a job.

Sad.

unfortunate but this is why you should have your own insurance outside your employer. I dont think this would get its day in court because LTD is clearly not from sunlife. What is more discouraging is I know a few people on LTD who canot get a job because their future employer sees them as a risk. Discriminatory but how would anyone prove it?

Tough situation so hope gov does something. I think as usual community will step in.

I know a guy who worked at Nortel for almost 10 years and collapsed under a brain tumor all of 3 months after losing his job there. His new employers came to his aid financially and did the best they could with him after he returned to health - mostly. Took all of 6 weeks.
Unfortunately the telecom industry itself was/is suffering from LTD due to aggressive growths like Mike Z that aren't treated but rather stuffed, idolized and worshipped for merely uttering "aggressive growth", so the prospect of anyone getting a job in it is indeed slimmer.

What say the young, dynamic, forward-thinking job recruiters: "Lookit the gimps Nortel employed, no wonder they went bankrupt."

But when you go back and do the math, its clear that Nortels insurance would not have covered all expenses either.

lucky, not too many good employers these days.

companies still prefer experience on the resume. so they prefer some jerk with 10 years as CEO even though he may as daft as oak with nothing to show. avoid these companies because they are just number crunchers.

He was lucky as his employers delayed his financial demise for another year by letting him work off his cash advance - much like Canada would if it bails out Nortel's pensioners.

The issue with LTD people is they thought from all the documentation they were insured. There was no clear documentation stating they were not so they have a case for misrepresentation I would think. Whether a company can be sued in bankrupcy is another issue? Another factor is most people do not go through
benefits plans like a lawyer would and might miss something written in fine
print and then down the road get nailed.

Something as important as this should be clearly spelled out.

It was spelled out. But Sun Life also offered supplementary LTD insurance itself, and that was also clearly spelled out and that is why myself and others I know did take advantage of their plan.

What I would like clearly spelled out here is how many of these 409'ers did plan ahead and actually are covered by full LTD, just not Nortel LTD. Do they now expect to get paid out twice if the government steps in? Oink, oink.

I am x- nortel employee and have all of benefits documentation.
Tell me where it spells it out ?

Depending on what version of the manual you have, It is on ~ page 15 of the 90+ page handbook. The new documents now have it highlighted on page 2. The older version that I have from the 90's is better as you don't have all the hyper-link stuff they brought in about 2000. The oldest manual I still have is about mid 1990’s and it was much clearer then..

When everything moved to on-line and hyper-linked it became more confusing for many. I don't know if the on-line versions were deliberately confusing or there was an expectation that most Nortel employees where some-what technically savvy.

My self being an older person, I always prefer a printed version.

Another note: any person on any company benefits is encouraged to apply for government benefits if they are entitled to them. The company benefits would be reduced by the amount they received from the government if their total income was more than a specified amount (85% for Nortel). It gives some additional security if ever needed in the future and makes the application process easier, and no sudden rush.

The version of the manual I have on line ( printed 2000) has nothing about being self insured. I left nortel 2002 and then was suprised when friends on ltd told me they were not insured. Could they have been insured and changed sometime
after 2000? I did read about the cap but not self insured.

I

As stated previously, my wife is disabled so I had done a lot of research into this over almost 20 years.

For Nortel, It states this in the flex booklet 2009 version on page 2.

“Did you know: Most of Nortel's Health & Group Benefits, including short-term disability, long term disability, medical and dental/vision/hearing care, are self-insured. This means that Nortel plays a role similar to that of an insurance company for its employees. In other words, the Company assumes the risks and pays the claims directly from its net income or retained earnings. The insurance company only provides administrative services such as claims processing.”

The 1997 flex-benefits highlights booklet has it high lighted on page 8 under “Did You Know…” , so it goes back to at least 1997, I don’t have any documents from before this (nor do I have for 2000), I cleaned out my filing cabinet a few years back. I don’t know when they became self insured but there was a reason many companies did this.

Insurance companies are rubbing there hands in glee at all this attention they are getting but they don’t come out and tell you the full truth. Under Canadian law, Insurance companies only have to cover you on LTD for 2 years! This is all that is mandated by the government. After that they can change the policy and you MAY loose your coverage. I have met several people this has happened to. With the company sponsored plan they are insuring you to do the job you had before you became disabled. With the insurance company they can say you can still work, just not the job you previously did, even if you can now only sweep floors, or work at a fast food outlet. Prior to self insured plans companies spent a lot of time fighting with insurance providers on behalf of their employees for benefits that they thought they were entitled to.

There was one LTD recipient from Nortel on the news that had been collecting for almost 20 years, she was carrying around a banner as part of a protest, if she had been insured by an insurance company she would have been cut off years before, especially if they saw the news footage.

If on LTD apply for CPP disability now. There are many reasons to do this here are a few…(if you qualify for CPP disability, Note: if you can do any work at all you won’t qualify).

1. You may be able to claim the disability tax credit this is ~6000/person. If this person and her son are both disabled that is a lot of extra $/year. With CPP and ODSP for her son she would get a significant amount of what she gets now.
2. Almost all plans whether insurance backed or company backed have a cap, the payments will continue longer if you are getting CPP disability.
3. CPP disability does not affect whether you own a house etc… they don’t care. Unlike Ontario disability that does care (5K max).
4. There is a time limit to apply, it was 5 years after becoming disabled, I think this has changed.
5. And this one is the most important (most people don’t know this).. Almost 100% of LTD plans stop when the recipient turns 65. At that point they are expected to go on Canada or company pension! If you were on CPP disability then it switches over. If you were on private disability for 30 years then there is a huge gap in your CPP contributions and your payout for CPP at 65 may be significantly reduced.

Note: There is a however a big tax advantage if you buy your on LTD insurance vs the company paying for it.

If someone can do any work and they don’t qualify for CPP disability, then they should re-train for a new job before their benefits are discontinued. Under an insurance backed plan they would never be able to stay off work for 20 years, if they can still do any work of any kind.

How much might re-training cost, if anything?

I ask because a certain European country once offered career re-training if one could no longer, say, work as a trained baker because they developed a flour allergy.

Re-training is often available from government sources. I have met people who were able to receive FREE training from ODSP (Ontario disabilities support program) and WSIB (workers comp) after their insurance companies cut them off. The one person was a heavy equipment mechanic and could no longer work in any related field, he could not lift heavy tools or parts. He re-trained to a job that only paid about 1/2 of what he made previously but did not involve heavy lifting. The definition of work depends on which organization you talk to, but usually refers to regular work. I would start by checking with UI offices and then your local MPP/MP.

Under CPP you can do volunteer work. To qualify for CPP disability you just can’t be able to do regular (i.e. go to a job every day..)

If someone (in Ontario) cannot pay their bills due to an injury or job loss.. etc. You may be able to get a grant or loan from the rent bank to cover short term rent etc. I don’t know if other provinces have similar plans. You would have to check for the details.

Ontario sucks.

These are all scenarios over-40s should be looking into - illness, supplementary insurance, new job prospects.. and the spectre of Ch11.

You are correct, it was spelled out but not many people actually read the info provided. The contract also spelled out the fact that this plan had a cap and that many current people on LTD would typically run out of benefits, after about 15 years of benefits. So those people that just started are the biggest losers (not fair). Note: many insurance companies also have caps so read the fine print.

Anyone on Nortel LTD needs to apply for CPP disability if they qualify. Under CPP disability there are no rules on what you own, it is based on what you have worked and paid into CPP (you can own a house etc.). The Ontario disability plan has a net worth limit of ~5K, and is available to all citizens of Ontario whether they have worked or not. For this person, if she received CPP disability then she could get ~1000/month + other benefits. Her son would also be eligible for up to 1000/month under the Ontario disability support plan + benefits. I have placed several posts about this going back many months, these people need to act now to ensure they get the benefits they are entitled to. It can take from 6 months to years before the government will grant any benefits so it is important to start early. My wife is disabled and I have gone thru this entire process with her. It maybe a long road with a lot of paper work and running around, but you will get nothing if you sit back and hope some politician will help you out.

We are taking about self insured and not cap. The cap issue it totally different from being self insured are you aware? He is well under his cap as his medical needs are small.

It is the self insured information I am looking for?

MIke Z has both hands out and I expect him to collect, again, as per the fine print, meticulously spelled out.

Did these folks put in their claims (as unsecured creditors) for their Disability Payments? It seems to be clear that they are legitimate creditors. The amounts they are owed shouldn't be too difficult for each of them to calculate with the help of their insurance agent. It is the present cost of an annuity that would replace their disability payment stream. The present speculation is that settlement amounts will be 40-60%. That would be a lot better than nothing.

Put down the krazy glue.
No way any of the peons will get 40 to 60 percent.
The Big Big Creditors might be lucky to get 35 pennies on the dollar.
Ex employees and people such as the ones in this article will likely get under a dime. The worst part other than the fractionary payouts will likely be the time that goes by before they see anything. Likely years. Not only that but they'll probably give out brutal installments heavily taxed. You think things are bad now. Just wait. We are talking Nortel and the Government here working together, or should I say not working together. Late news today on the wire Quebec rescues nortel pensioners. So now the U.S, Europe and Quebec are there for the pensioners as I predicted. Not so the same in MorOntario.

3 billion of the largest defiicit on Ontario history went to bailing out the auto industry.

That's right.
They bailed out the bolt turners who do nothing but build automobiles
even though most of the entire process is automated-robotocized.
Strength in numbers for those clowns.
Incredibly good pay, pension for life and benefits.
Mcguinea just guaranteed secure retirement for them.
He's petrified of the jimmy hoffa ghost and the big unions.
He wants to secure votes.
Just like the votes he secures when he sends liberal ministers to ping
every, refugee, asylum seeking non tax paying, non contributor they can grab when they come in and whisper in their ear that they owe the liberal gov't a favour.

This is nothing more than companies selling insurance products out from under the consumer protection regulations that are imposed on insurance companies. They do it because it is cheaper that way. A major reason it is cheaper that way is because they offer an inferior product. My solution would be (1) that companies that want to sell/provide insurance products and self-insure be required to purchase reinsurance to cover the risk that they will bail and (2) any company providing insurance products for "due consideration" (i.e. labor as well as premiums) would be under the regulatory oversights and rules that cover insurance companies.

I find it unbelievable that this "All about Nortel" site continues to bring out the anger and disgust from past and present employees, pensioners, and shareholders (myself included) who have had their lives drastically changed by the fraudulent actions of Nortel management. How can we sit back and let Z potentially collect his $12mil and do nothing... because we are passive and although disgusted and angry we are quite willing to let sh#t continually thrown in our faces by the likes of Z , the BOD and the huge stable of bankruptcy lawyers who will walk away with their pockets full of OUR MONEY.
Something must be done.
I just don't know what can be done.

Problem is as long as people are fat dumb and happy they will not complain. When it gets down to "will I be able to eat tomorrow" I suspect things will change. We're not there yet though and I doubt we'll ever get there. Politicians aren't stupid enough to let that happen.

Case in point. Am I the only one that noticed the lady in the video drinking bottled water? Last time I checked bottled water was more expensive than gas (not to mention it is probably re-packaged tap water and that plastic will be polluting the planet for a long long time). If I were her and was really in dire straits I wouldn't be drinking bottled water, especially while taping a video aimed at obtaining sympathy from other folks.

Let's face it. We have been spoiled rotten in the last couple of decades and now the music stopped and Z stole all the chairs.

Its unclear if the bottle was sealed or refilled with tap water by her. Maybe she diluted it?

You choose to make regular contributions to your company's long-term disability (LTD) benefit plan because, while you are unlikely to ever need it, you don't wish to risk finding yourself living in poverty or possibly institutionalized as a result of an accident or disease

This is a bit confusing to us Yanks because we are scorned constantly and ridiculed globally for not having free and universal health care the rest of the less greedy world enjoys. (Obama was supposed to have fixed this by now, and for free.) It would stand to reason that as a Canadian in Canada I could and would decline any LTD as an unnecessary expense offered by for-profit shills of capitalism.

It gets more confusing.

In the United States, France and Britain, there are statutes that protect LTD beneficiaries but Canada has no federal or provincial legislation that protects those who are most in need.

Thing is, even young Yanks who opted for voluntary basic health coverage and got seriously ill in the short term are no better or worse off as they will spend decades if not the rest of their lives paying back those bills (with Ch11 ever an option should another crisis befall them.)

no healthcare private or government run covers mortgage, family expenses, drugs, trial drugs, devices.

everybody paid in through their insurance program. but you should have had external insurance to secure coverage.

Free and universal health care is oft sold as such - 100% free, i.e. tax the rich sufficiently to cover the costs of all medical care whilst supporting the individual lifestyles the poor were in before illness struck them down.

I would epxect the Canadian government to step up, step in and take care of these 409ers without a second thought about the expenses.

basic healthcare yes. but not income replacement, drugs, special procedures and so on. Ontario just announced its largest deficit ever. do you think they will spend money? in fact they will add some new McGuilty taxes.

"I would epxect the Canadian government to step up, step in and take care of these 409ers without a second thought about the expenses."

Less, it does. You get medical care and you get ~$1,000/mo to live on. That's it. And that comes after any equity you have is turned over to the government.

It's not a free ride. After you turn over your house, vehicles, savings, etc., you get enough to rent a room with utilities and go for a Tim Hortons coffee each morning. Plus meds.

It's just people here seem to expect the Canadian government to pay for a whole (Canadian) lifestyle. LOL.

Wow, thats surreal, it describes where I am today. I must be sick. A former NT employee. Both

"This is a bit confusing to us Yanks because we are scorned constantly and ridiculed globally for not having free and universal health care the rest of the less greedy world enjoys."

Well, the health care is free, but the government by no means owes you continued house and car payments, personal retirement savings, holidays and a standard a living you may have become accustomed to from before you were permanently disabled.

In Ontario there is a basic Ontario Disability Support Program (ODSP) that helps people with disabilities who are in financial need pay for living expenses, like food and housing. It also covers dental, vision and prescription, above the base of about $1,100 per month (that's taxable income, of course, though).

So, no, you're not thrown to the streets, but the government isn't responsible if you can't be bothered to understand how a private disability program you paid into works, and it's certainly not going to pick up for your lifestyle when you screw up.

Didn't you 409'ers read the dang Sun Life literature and understand you still needed real insurance for real long term coverage? I did and so did most of my colleagues.

How many of these 409 have personal supplementary insurance? Most, too, I imagine. And now they're angling to feed at the bankruptcy trough as well. It's comical.

So the lesson here is even if I live in a country with free health care, my employer offers STD and LTD at reasonable rates I still need to buy private insurance if I want to maintain my standard of living should I fall ill.
(Which shiouldn't happen as often in a country with free health care, tis said.)

That, and insurers will need time to process my claims so would I mind waiting outside?

Ah, so these 409ers signed up for LTD, played victim, took the money, bought TVs and cars, got heart disease from living in sloth and mammon, and are again playing the victim angle as Nortel shuts down. Caveat emptor, justice is served.
So if I get lastingly ill in Canada while paying into it, this ODSP will pick up the tab - provided I adjust my lifestyle as per their metrics. And who exactly comes up with these metrics? But, of course, the noble government. And not a single person in it would think to disparage their nigh-perfect health care system by buying into private care. They all give so much money back to their people they couldn't afford to, anyway. Etc.

But. Why didn't the govt step in and read the fine print for these 409ers with such obvious reading disabilities to begin with, hm? The govt is 100% culpable, if you ask me.

Smartie-poo Z and his lawyers, on the other hand, read the fine print, and intend on getting what they're legally entitled to, so Canada will eventually reward Z with $12mio for being honest.

$12mio/Z instead of
$12mio/409 which makes, hey! about $30,000 per. That sum sounds familiar, kinda like some folks' annual pensions.

$30k is a huge fat chunk of money, way too much for grannies and granpas who just eat rice cakes and drink diluted water all day. I say those with $30k pensions CAN AND WILL make do with 30% less.

This is totally insensitive and you
should be banned from this board.
There are people on Ltd with terminal
cancer and saying they put on act ?
I thought I had seen the worst in humanity
and I realized there always someone worst.

I'm just being sarcastic, and I'm personally worth considerably less than Nortel on paper, even, due to doctor bills.

So I feel do indeed feel the 409ers pain.

I will make sure Mark Evans is aware of your post and I will
take this matter to their representative. Totally disgusting comments.

Looks like some people really have a hard time reading the fine print and/or between lines. But sure, you go right ahead and sic the law on me for, what, gross insensitivity and stuff.
Since I lack cash to afford legal counsel of my own for (cough) undisclosed reasons, I expect your lawyers will seize my pricey Keppra and Warfarin stashes and disburse it among those deemed worthier, like yourself or someone you know?

Good on them. That'll show Nortel.

First of all pick your battles with people who can defend themselves and not on Disability. Making so called sarcastic remarks about people who are terminally ill and last leg of life. I cannot believe the human race has got to this level. If fact why don't you post your name, email address and you can discuss this issue with a person related to one of the people on LTD who is seriously ill. How about speaking face to face with brother,father of person on disability so you cannot hide behind broadband 10 year dell
and secure router in basement and spewing out childish comments.

Oh, well, that minor issue of Mike Z in fact raiding the till of $$$$ LTD money will have to wait cuz YOU insist Nortel waste money on me for reasons still only glowingly obvious to yourself. But yer doing it for the people, so that alone should garner accolades.
How about you go public and post your name and e-mail right here and now so when you successfully sue a disabled person into homelessness the noble masses can praise you accordingly.

Cmon, do it, theres no risk, you know everything about me, the lowest of the low, you know I lie about everything.

- x-nortel Nashville, Texas layed off person

The money will also come from many activist groups who support disabled
people who don't have voice of their own. This is no joking matter. I have emails from many people about your comments. They don't need this at a critical time in their life. You are putting DOWN disabled people .The lady in the video ( I know personal)
is in critical shape and also taking care of disabled child. There are people with cancer ..etc.
I have send all of your posts and comments with head of their group.
If he/she decides she will post here her contact number, name and email address. Again, the issue is not about me but about your comments which have offended & hurt many on LTD.

Mark Evans is aware of your posts
The head of Nortel LTD who represents some 409 people is also now aware.

This is very serious stuff.

-you seriously need help. -

You make this diagnosis and treat it with a lawsuit. That should make it all right and good. Still haven't told us what youre charging me with. What laws were broken, hm?

Mike Z and Koskie Minsky have cynically taken your money, people, have you e-mailed them
expressing similar indignation?
They laugh at your misguided crusade. Laugh.

You seem convinced that I couldn't possibly be disabled or have cancer myself and therefore need to made to somehow suffer.


And thats the reason I disabled dont identify with you.

EDIT: make that a few disabled in my camp are of the opinion that your vindictiveness and blind zeal are seriously misguided.

It is YOUR comments that have HURT people on LTD. I will leave it at that and hope the head of the NOrtel LTD group will follow up with you ASAP.
This is not a joking matter.
All of your comments have been forwarded to her/him.

"This message was anonymized by its previous owner, Don Quixote"

WIMP!

How can Canadian politicians sit and do nothing. This is a total disgrace to what Canada was suppose to provide to it's citizens. Considering all the taxes we pay (compared to our neighbor to the south) to protect citizens from something like this happening, They spend their time on the hill talking about Hapers's piano playing, infrustructure spending on door knobs and whether a terrorist in Gitmo should be brought back to Canada since his"rights" are being violated....what about the rights of these LTD people....no one seems to care about them....what a disgrace!!

They should be going after the money that the former CEO and executives from Nortel "stole" and give it back to these folks. Another option would be for the government to expropriate the Nortel Carling facility and sell it off then use the money to fund LTD, Pension and severance claims of hardworking Canadians...

This paragraphs says it all.
"In the United States, France and Britain, there are statutes that protect LTD beneficiaries but Canada has no federal or provincial legislation that protects those who are most in need. Corporate directors get their bonuses. Lawyers and secured creditors walk away with full pockets. Pensioners are hurt (possibly losing more than 30 per cent of their pension) but still afloat. But the 409 people on disability may be left with nothing". The fact of the matter is this poor woman is not represented by her government. The problem is she is a true Canadian. Probably generations of her descendants have been here building this country and contributing taxes. What matters to governments at all levels more? A boatload of tamil terrorist refugees and how we must not turn them away. We must grant them asylum and give them welfare. Tamil protestors, special interest groups, visible minority hiring rights, special interest groups, welfare for the newly landed immigrant. Tolerance of fanatical islam, the charter of abuse, lawsuits by kenyans, syrians and terrorists who feel they have been abandoned but deep down could care less about canada. Only here to use it to their benefit. These are the things that matter in Canuckistan.