Nortel’s Pension Fiasco

,,

Mike Zafirovski's house 1291 N Green Bay Rd , Lake Forest IL

In case you want to send a Christmas card...

I think their needs to be changes across the board with respect to pensions, and not just in Canada but for companies in general regardless of location. To begin with and this is the one thing I can not believe we still allow, companies should not be allowed to maintain underfunded pension plans. The plans should be 100% funded irrespective of anything. In addition the money, once put in should not be available for anything else regardless of the companies circumstances. And at minimum, CEO's and all executive management should be held responsible for underfunded pension plans. In particular they should be forced to fund the pension plans out of their pocket when they allow it to be underfunded and allow a company to go out of business or into bankruptcy. Until at least the last part of this is at least done companies will be able to get away with this type of thing for as long as possible. Employees will remain powerless to do anything about it.

Money once "put in" CAN'T be used for anything else. Those funds are with a separate trust company (Northern Trust Company) and cannot be touched or used to pay for anything other than pension obligations. Where people get screwed is when the actuarial value of the liabilities exceed assets (69% funded per last word) - so new future pension payouts for NEW retirees are limited to the 69% value. Existing retirees currently drawing pension are still drawing the full value, but obviously that could change and be revised downward as no new money is going in. Markets are up 40%+ this year, so that should reduce the 69% funding status in theory.

Where there should be a law on funding is to require companies to put more money in when times and market conditions are good to manage the ebbs and flows when markets crash and companies can't afford to put in full funding.

In the US at least Northern Trust no longer has the money. PBGC took that over. True, once in it cannot be touched....but the employer can (and will...what is the penality? ------ Mike Z has to pay his grounds keeper less?) not fund them correctly.

Doesn't this article in the Globe and Mail say it all.
This is what the pensioners and Canadians are up against.
We need changes and we need them NOW.

Canada's Immigration Minister has signalled that he intends to play hardball with 76 men believed to be from Sri Lanka who arrived on a rusty boat off Canada's West Coast, as the government battles the perception of Canada as a soft touch for asylum seekers.

While Tamil Canadians have urged Canadian officials to show compassion, Immigration Minister Jason Kenney told The Globe and Mail yesterday that that the migrants' illegal arrival highlights the growing problem of human smuggling.

The Conservative government has said it believes many refugee claims are bogus and has promised tougher legislation.

“We don't want to develop a reputation of having a two-tier immigration system – one tier for legal, law-abiding immigrants who patiently wait to come to the country, and a second tier who seek to come through the back door, typically through the asylum system,” Mr. Kenney said in an interview.

“We need to do a much better job of shutting the back door of immigration for those who seek to abuse that asylum system.”

The plight of the men, who are expected to make refugee claims, will likely move to an Immigration and Refugee Board hearing room Tuesday.

Under Canadian immigration law, an asylum seeker who is held in custody must be given a detention hearing within 48 hours of being taken into custody. The migrants were led off the boat in handcuffs late Saturday night.

Their arrival has galvanized Canada's huge Tamil community, which dispatched two of its members to the West Coast. Toronto lawyer Gary Anandasangaree showed up at the Canada Border Services Agency's Vancouver offices Monday asking to meet with the migrants, but was refused.

He and David Poopalapillai took a red-eye flight to Vancouver early Monday. They believe the migrants are young Tamils desperate to leave Sri Lanka.

“For many people, Sri Lanka is no longer safe,” Mr. Anandasangaree said. He said he will try again Tuesday to meet with the migrants, who were taken from Vancouver Island to a suburban Vancouver detention centre.

The Tamil Canadians believe the migrants will make refugee claims. Mr. Anandasangaree said he flew to Vancouver to ensure the men have lawyers and are treated properly. “If they've willing to risk so much getting here, they deserve a hearing. They deserve our compassion.”

News reports from Australia suggest that the migrants' ship, called Ocean Lady, may be part of a network of vessels carrying desperate asylum seekers to Western nations. Several vessels carrying Sri Lankans and other Asian nationals – including Afghans – have been intercepted in the Pacific Ocean. Australian news reports suggest those Sri Lankan asylum seekers knew a ship was headed to Canada.

There are also reports that the migrants paid up to $45,000 (U.S.) each to make the treacherous journey. When asked where a Sri Lankan could get that kind of money, some Tamil Canadians noted that most Tamils have relatives abroad, 300,000 of whom live in Canada.

The migrants' dramatic arrival is reminiscent of a wave of illegal Chinese migrants who sailed into Canadian waters off B.C. 10 years ago. They had paid human smugglers thousands of dollars to get them across the ocean. Eventually, more than half of those roughly 600 migrants were sent back to China.

Tamil Canadians say Tamils fleeing Sri Lanka have legitimate claims to asylum. A long, bloody civil war recently ended between the government and rebel Tamil Tigers, but civilian Tamils were caught in the clash. Nearly 300,000 are being held in an internment camp in northern Sri Lanka, which has been condemned by the world's top human-rights organizations.

If the migrants are Tamils, one top concern for Canadian Immigration officials will be the threat that some are members of the Tamil Tigers, which Canada considers a terrorist organization. Any of the migrants who fought for the separatist Tigers would be barred from making a refugee claim.

Mr. Kenney noted that asylum claims have increased by almost 70 per cent over the past two years, spurred by Canada's acceptance rate of about 40 per cent, which he said was twice that of other developed nations.

“When a large number of people arrive off the coast in one boat, it attracts people's attention,” he said. “But I can tell you there were airplanes arriving from Prague this summer where over half the passengers were going on to make asylum claims.”

However, the minister had no comment when asked when legislation to tighten the rules for those claiming asylum would arrive in Parliament. All political parties are wary of being seen as anti-immigrant by Canada's large and growing immigrant population.

build a damn port offshore in international waters. all ships go through here. charge a port fee. send the human cargo ships back before they enter Canadian waters and get the 48 detention hearing. it will be much cheaper.

turning back bogus refugees or people who jump the system is not anti-immigrant. lets see what India, Sri Lanka, China, Saudi Arabia do if hundreds of thousands of Canadians turn up for asylum at their ports. what do you think they will do? will they give them as much compassion? probable prison and a ticket back paid by the Canadian government.

these people paid $45,000 which is 4.95 million Sri Lankan ruppes. anti-immigrant my a$$. they just bumped the line and should be sent right back home to the very end of the line.

Funny how things work out, sometimes

I lived in Germany in the 80s when they increasingly invited the suffering from abroad to "seek asylum" there. This was, in part, a gesture of atonement to make up for WWs I, II and the Holocaust, but also to adjust for their stagnant birthrate; you can't offer free and universal healthcare and pensions to everyone if everyones retired, eh.

German thoroughness and short work weeks had them taking up to seven years to process so many asylum cases, during which seekers were granted food, clothing, healthcare, allowance and shelter but were not permitted to work.

A growing number of Germans complained about this so the neo-Nazi card was promptly and successfully brandished by various interest groups for a while longer, but it was actually the very card-brandishing green-left government itself that eventually decided and managed to change/ accelerate the asylum process.

Card-carrying watchdogs may have lost power to current rightwinger Merkel by sending sane voters home, but they've promised her and her ilk "you can have our trump cards when you pry them from our cold dead hands"

So there you have it.
Toads like McGuinea bring in millions to secure votes and they screw everyone else who isn't part of that makeup/demographic.
Welcome to Canuckistan.

I read that article and immediately thought of you!

Bottom line, our government has to work for Canadians and get rid of the reputation that we are a doormat for anyone to come in and do as they please. While I think multiculturalism (and my parents are immigrants like so many others) has pros and cons, we should be Canadian first while still holding true to our ancestral roots. That said, it requires a contribution from everyone in our society, and in turn, a government that protects the interests of its people. Unfortunately today, there are far to many people with no loyalty to Canada as it is simply a way to escape a sh*tty country, while at the same time getting free health care and a university education for a really cheap price.

I would love to see American-style patriotism in Canada. We're a great country with great people from so many different backgrounds. Let's celebrate what he have in common (being Canadian) and less on what makes us different!

And no more freeloaders please!

America have their own problems with illegals from Mexico, Cuba.

Tough laws are needed. Would agree the systems are two tier by penalizing qualified, educated people who do not appear in front of immigration in rag tags with no identity background or history.

under (CCAA, Bankruptcy ) - -your benefits/disability benefits are not secure
-your pension is not secure
-your severance most likely will be nothing

This is not just nortel employee/pensioners fight but for every hard working canadian in private sector. Check your benefits and if self insured and your company goes into CCAA the above might apply to you. While in CCAA companies are allowed to pay bonuses to senior mangers. Nortel paid some 40 Million to senior managers while paying nothing for employee severance. This is a disgrace.

Nicely said. This is something I can't wrap my head around. Honor some contracts while dishonor others esp. the key employee ones like pension. The bankruptcy laws need to be amended and pensions and disability benefits should be better protected via insurance, etc.

The protest tomorrow will be forgotton by Friday. What would have more of an impact would be every protester contacting their MP and MPP, more than once. Ask for a face to face meeting, let them know that they are being watched and you intend to work for or against them in the next election, based on how they deal with this mess. In politics the squeeky wheel gets the grease. I have already met with my MPP and emailed my MP. I'm not going to waste my time attending the protest.

Unfortunately you are probably right but I guarantee if the protestors played hardball like the Tamil Tiger Refugees there would be changes.
I hope they camp out there all fall and winter and disrupt everything, just like the Tamil Tigers. Create chaos and disruption. If the pensioners give it the old college try I do expect something to come out of this. They need more media and publicity and this bell needs to be heard all over Canada.
Let's get it done.

Totally Agree, the problem with us figgin Canadians is we are polite and cordial. You are getting robed of 40% of your income. This is like robber
taking 25% of your security out of pocket. We don't dare step on grass at Parliament, bring balloons, throw water balls, or smoke pot. we don't disrupt anything, we stand there smiling with signs all polite and cordial and shaking hands. This is not a friggin social function but a CRISIS. Do not smile when pictures are taken of you with sign - it is not a happy occasion losing 40% of your pay and who knows what benefits. We are in a crisis and treat it as such. Do you see any movement from Harper ? - why do you think not? Did you see how fast Haper moved on GM bail-out ? Guess why?

GM union does not take crap. I urge you to read this article by J.Simpson

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/we-were-there-for-gm-and-chrysler-why-not-for-nortel/article1226302/

When Nortel Networks, the largest technology company in Canada, asked for help, the federal Conservatives waxed their ears and watched the company slide beneath the waters of insolvency.

"One reason for deux poids, deux mesures: The car companies had large, vocal, tough unions, whereas Nortel was full of white-collar, non-unionized employees"

I agree with you. If people don't fight, they don't get it. If you don't fight, it also means that you are okay with whatever is being pushed down your throat! It's okay to raise taxes if people are okay with it, which is the case here in Canada. It's okay to take more from someone to pay for someone else ... even if that someone else has done nothing for you! That's what it has become.

BTW, I don't think majority of people have sympathy with Nortel and Nortel folks. We are in severe minority - 'cos we are perceived as people who earn well for living and who aren't worth the money. That's the impression I got from many blog post and comments and people here in Ottawa (esp. Govt. ones)

You do write a lot against immigrants. I've seen many of your posts on this and I don't think I agree with you. It may be true in some cases, but it's not something that can be generalized to all immigrants. Most of the immigrants are here 'cos Canada needs them. I agree that some shouldn't have been here 'cos of their disputable background. I agree that this "refugee" thing is truly messed up. On the other hand it needs to be understood that this is a country of immigrants! Native indians don't really have any control or say. Also, in practice, I've seen people typically using "immigrant" for non-white people, which is not good ... you might as well be honest and say non-whites instead of immigrants. Look for people based on their contributions.

With someone daft and toothless like McGuilty I dont see anything happen. Ontario is a have not province now. Everybody else is cash rich including Newfoundland. All of them are against supporting Ontario although it supported these provinces for decades.

Crap economy. Crap deficit. Crap outlook. Crap corruption (OLGC, eHealth and god knowswhat else). All the Liberals can do is raise taxes with health tax, hst.

On the ship that just arrived, they should all besent home. Moment people are allowed to jump the system like this, genuine immigrants get shafted. We do not need more cab drivers, janitors or burger flippers. The tanking economic situation with no government assistance will ensure we do those jobs. Maybe all the pensioners should take a boat to international waters, toss our passports and come back as refugees. Are we all not displaced, which is one of the criteria for refugees?

Nicely said!

Did you get a load of McGuinea smirking and agreeing how it is no big deal that morontarions have to pay more for their auto insurance at their next renewal.
Only in Ontario can a dweeb get away with what he gets away with.
You can thank the millions of immigrants/votes he and the liberal agenda brought in.
He has no shame. He even smirked about ehealth.
Kinda like a crosseyed skunk chewing on a razor blade.
I like your refugee suggestion.
That is the only way it will work for people who have paid taxes for generations
in MorOntario.

Why do you expect anything better from Liberals? The core of liberal philosophy is "need". Whoever has the greatest "need" gets the priority! It's not about contribution. In fact it's against contribution 'cos people who contribute well, typically do well ... so they are despised. Also, since needs of low contributors typically cannot be satisfied on their own, Liberals think the best way is to have the Govt. do it for them by putting a system that takes more money from people who do well. In short, liberals do not value contribution! What do you expect from such people? Only people who don't want to contribute, or are not competent or are crookedly smart can be like that! By "crookedly smart" I mean people who know that liberalism is the way for them to gain power and that's all that they care about, nothing else!

If McGuilty had his way he'd like all of us to work at McD's and still smirk about all the jobs he created.

Well looking at news over the past few days has made me red with anger. The Libs are queer with scandals still under their watch in the provinces. NDP only cares about Layton. PQ only cares about Quebec. And now apparently the Tories have been handing out contracts to their buddies in their ridings.

Talk about white collar corruption. If the government is like this what standard can corporate be held to.

Need to start a tough talking, tough acting grassroots party. Time Canadians really thought who they should vote for their future instead of just going ga ga on plastic carrots thrown at them during election time. There are enough qualified unemployed folk to start one.

"Need to start a tough talking, tough acting grassroots party."

-------------------------

Canadians themselves are mostly liberal. Look at Obama's rating in Canada. At one point they were over 80%. First generation immigrants are still in minority.

Canada suffers from third generation syndrome. The first generation put a lot of hard work to get things moving. The second generation saw the first generation working hard, so they appreciated hard work and contributions .. and therefore did well. The "third" generation go everything easily .. so they don't value hard work and contributions well. For them, if they have something .. won't it be nice if everyone had it. What they don't see is that it's important to work for your living! It's not an entitlement!

If you really want grass-root thing, teach the future generation right principles .. something that the first two generations had ... or else they will learn it the hard way (if they even get it)

As of now, I do think conservative part is the bet bet. It has to be in majority Govt though to do something.

"Need to start a tough talking, tough acting grassroots party."

-------------------------

Too late for that. Too many refug....immigrants in Canada who couldn't give a rat's ass about the country, other than abusing its system. How do you expect a grassroots party to succeed, when grassroots isn't even a recognizable word to the majority living there. I feel for you.

Canadians themselves are mostly liberal. Look at Obama's rating in Canada. At one point they were over 80%. First generation immigrants are still in minority.

Canada suffers from third generation syndrome. The first generation put a lot of hard work to get things moving. The second generation saw the first generation working hard, so they appreciated hard work and contributions .. and therefore did well. The "third" generation go everything easily .. so they don't value hard work and contributions well. For them, if they have something .. won't it be nice if everyone had it. What they don't see is that it's important to work for your living! It's not an entitlement!

If you really want grass-root thing, teach the future generation right principles .. something that the first two generations had ... or else they will learn it a hard way. Don't simply blame immigrants. In fact many of the immigrants have struggled hard (done well in their fields) to come here and they truly know the value of hard work and contributions. I see them as partners 'cos they can help us fix it. I think we need more of such immigrants.

As of now, I do think conservative part is the bet bet. It has to be in majority Govt though to do something.

What exactly are you going to teach the next generation? It's too late. The population has been diluted to the point of no return. There is nothing to rescue. Grassroots doesn't mean anything in Canada anymore.

Teach them the value of hard work and contribution. Teach them to value contribution much more than "need". Teach them to value achieve/excel on their own efforts rather than via entitlement of any form. This will automatically help them value people who contribute (regardless of their origin & background) and not value people who are drag on the system

BTW what does grass roots changes mean to you?

I totally support all Canadian, and especially Ontario ex Nortel pensioners since they are getting screwed the worst. They are getting the absolute worst end of the stick, while the Euros, Americans and Quebecers take care of their own.
Not in MorOntario.
Get out and be heard. Sign more petitions. Complain to your MP, MPP and government at the highest level. Make the protest a highly visible priority.
When I think how the rag tag refugee sucking tamils marched en masse making threats and had absolutely no care or concern disrupting traffic and essential services I want to see the pensioners raise a bigger stink.
After all these people, unlike the tamil protestors, have worked here for generations, made an honest living, contributed to society, and most importantly paid taxes so groups like the Tamils can protest at our expense.
Take back the night and day.
Think about your relatives who died for this country.
They did not die for the way it is in MorOntario today.
Make a difference.
Be loud, Be angry and Be Heard.

Re: -They are getting the absolute worst end of the stick, while the Euros, Americans and Quebecers take care of their own.


.....what would you expect?! We dont hear many Canadians standing up in the Euro Parliament. The fact is the Canadians are not alone in this matter, the impact also affects other regions & as one...please have a little savvy. Its the www....not the Canadian net :-)

I would hope that people in Ottawa come out support this protest to make changes to the bankruptcy laws which should be protecting the workers first !!! Once the assets are all sold, pensioners, those owed severance and LTD need to be considered as preferred creditors. As well, Canadian asset sales need to be kept in the country for those preferred creditors. The rally is to support the over 10 000 signatures of a petetion submitted to the government in Sept to make the required changes to Federal law. These suggested changes are already in place in other jurisdictions around the world....all except Canada. Once it's law, then the judge will just have to follow it !..no excuses!!!

Come out and show your support...noon to 1pm Oct 21st.

well if noone came out when Z made it to Parliament what will they do now. That was the golden chance for pensioners.

everything is being sold now. pretty much missed the train on keeping any asset sales here.

only way is to get an MP to pass some sort of a bill. which is not going to happen.

"no one came out":

They had to turn away people from the hearing when Mike Z was there because there were so many pensioners and ex employees there. I was there ...were you?

NOW is the chance to get the law changed before everything is sold off. There is still time. Passing a bill can STILL happen.

I did not have to. But you think anybody would care about people sitting quietly. The room was quiet as Z went through his MP Wash of the mess.

Has any customer service agent given you a refund if you were polite or did they act quickly when you were pissed and showed it. There was only one woman out with signs following Z if I remember.

Time Canadian pensioners forgot the Canadian part and protested like real pensioners whose lives are on the line.

I do think that pension plans, LTD, etc., deserve protection. I am fortunate to have been a US employee and now being paid retirement as of 1 October by the PBGC...but would have preferred a lump sum cash out. In regard to keeping the sales proceeds in Canada that doesn't sound realisitic. At best what may be able to be kept in Canada is a prorated percentage based on where the business was actually operating over the past several years and paying taxes....of course Nortel was very creative in finding ways to avoid paying taxes. The courts do not seem likely to say that all proceeds from sales of units and real property will be sent to Canada. Other the the farce BoD and Mike Z in th end how much of the business was being operated out of Canada?

What bothers me is the response I have heard to the effect that we shouldn't complain to the government about losing part or all of our pensions, since lots of people don't have a pension at all. But, because of my promised pension, I have been unable to take advantage of the increase to RRSP contribution allowances that was made some years ago, and therefore paid higher taxes than those who were able to make such contributions - will I get that headroom back if I lose the pension? Not bloody likely. (Of course, I probably would have just used that space to put Nortel shares in my SDRSP =/)

I'm not sure how the PBCG works in the US. Do you get all your pension or only a part. In UK most likely outcome is big reduction in pensions. There is a PPF (Pension Protection Fund) but that has a low cap on what you get and no cost of living rises for service before 1997. Most UK Nortel pensioners suddenly have lost all or close to all of their cost of living rises - for ever. (Unless you retired since 1997 and even then they are scaled back a lot).

Nortel somehow managed to underfund the UK pension so much that I reckon it is the biggest creditor. Who allowed that? It's not a preferred creditor ehre wither. It should be.

The PBGC will pay up to ~$54k per year. Anything above that is lost...I don't have to worry about that. My payment comes directly from the PBGC.

Not much. I dont think Canada is a big business opportunity for many companies even if they are Canadian. Sad but true. Not big enough. Not a lot of competition. Pretty much controlled by incumbents like Cisco who own everything.

Time somebody passed a Buy Canada law.

How many companies in Canada's downfall was influenced by fraud? How many continued paying bonuses after severances and pensions were cut.

Every time I hear "do whatever they want" Hackney's smiley face and big ears with the potential to frown red faced and explode in road rage comes to mind. Hype. revisions, printing money, etc., Nortel has certainly done and said anything it wanted.

Winning the lottery?
Bankruptcy benefits the company and its big business creditors.
Pensioners and employees pay for this lottery.
...heh, as if already robbing shareholders and misleading others was not good enough.

Who will listen to the sheeple marching in protest...strikes me a futile, although better than nothing I guess...

today they want stiffere sentances for fraud, (parole after 8 months for stealing over a million) Government to fight white-collar crime (with a wet noodle)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-to-fight-white-collar-crime/article1330732/

...deleted