Is Nortel Fishing for New CDMA Bids?

Of course Nortel's management would like to receive a higher bid for the CDMA and LTE assets. It appears that they have two subjective goals: (1) to dismember Nortel by selling all asstes as quickly as possible; and (2) to maximize the bonus pay out to the executive management team.

The current management team and the BoD have been operating under the assumption that their obligations are only to a certain class of creditor and to themselves. They believe that they have no obligations to existing employees or to employees owed severance, and that their obligations to pensioners will be defined by the court under bankruptcy laws.

As for bidding on Nortel's CDMA & LTE assets, there are very few potential for these assets, and only one or two that could top Nokia's bid. It will be very difficult for MP to raise sufficient capital to offer a bid for all of Nortel that would trump the Nokia bid bid for just the CDMA & LTE assets. MP's goal in any buy out would be to made whole on their $400M bond holdings plus to be able to pay back all capital and interest payments with 18 months, plus generate a substantial profit by dismembering most of Nortel via cash sales and then spinning off substantially smaller entity to some 3rd party.

For the past 3 1/2 years I have been saying that Nortel was careening towards bankruptcy and them dismemberment and I was right. Now I am saying that it will be almost impossible for MP to raise sufficient capital to satisfy the claims of the other 90% of the bod holders, and submit a bid that would be acceptable to the courts versus the Nokia bid. It is also obvious that MP believes that it has no obligations to current employees, severed employeees, or pensioners. Current Nortel employees had better be aware of the salient fact that MP's only objetctive is to get the maximum return for its investment. This would mean that all employees would be facing the renegotiation of all labor contracts at substantially lower pay rates (probably by at least 25%) and with substantantially fewer benefit costs.

There has been plenty of discussion about wireless, enterprise and MEN but has anyone any thoughts/rumours/wild speculation about the CVAS part of Nortel (ne CVoIP)?

Seems strange that a large chunk of the company has barely been mentioned on AAN and elsewhere.

Could it be thank as it has a larger revenue than MEN and enterprise it is easier for the SLT to keep hold of it and carry on taking bonuses?

you can't get the answer until july 24. wait wait. all we did and do till now.

Dion Joannou hired to help with Nortel unit bid

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=1786781

That was quick. I thought he was a funeral director?

http://www.smartbrief.com/news/aaaa/industryPR-...

He must have seen Neptune was a dead-end job and thought he'd have better luck trying to revive Nortel. The best of luck.

A 44 year old frenchman with a silver spoon.
MP is doomed.
Reading the article insinuates MP is only interested in wireless although the suggestion is they would want more?

This is getting very interesting. Looks like these MP vultures are gonna put up a big fight.

Too bad for the NA employees if they win. The cost cutting/layoff misery will continue forever.....

French employees, still on strike, demonstrate at E&Y's building (Paris), and bury Nortel Networks SA
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwAH15qyni4
Still more actions to come from France: carriers are talking about penalties, E&Y may be sued, etc...
May this example inspire all Nortelian over the world, to stand up and get the reward of all of these years spent building Nortel, instead of letting all that wealth going in the pockets of advisors, administrators, attorneys or whatever
Stand up !

Quitters. Pessimists.

Plus, (pronounced "plü ", Yanks) the coffin could inspire any number of disgruntled US employees to act out violently against the BoD, thereby disrupting its ongoing restructuring efforts, set to conclude within the next 12-18 months.

Addendum to what I'd posted in this thread earlier:

07/11/2009
In a conference call this week, an ABI researcher called out Nortel for spending an hour rambling on about how monetizable its assets are.

ABI’s Nadine Manjaro told company representatives everyone on the call appeared to be listening to nothing more than a sales pitch, rather than news and information about the company’s future. She claims the bankrupt giant is simply trying to fend off negative press and increase the number and value of bids coming in for its assets.

Cisco shill, Cisco shill. Robert Verdun in disguise.

http://www.billingworld.com/news/briefs/beads-o...

Bidding for Nortel's CDMA and LTE assets begins July 24, and Nortel took the opportunity in a webcast last week to spell out all of the ways the company is providing leadership in the space, how valuable its assets are and how it is continuing to operate business as usual.

The hour-long marketing pitch made ABI analyst Nadine Manjaro ask during the question-and-answer session whether the presentation's objective was to brief potential bidders in the value of Nortel's wireless assets.

Bruce Gustafson, the vendor's wireless marketing vice president, in essence said, "no," all the while reinforcing the fact that Nortel's business is "clearly a valuable asset and the market has realized that. NSN stepped up and there may be other bidders, but we have been quiet for a long time. Now that we know we will exist and that there is continuity for the business, it's time to remind people of the business."

Nortel will exist. Period.


http://www.fiercebroadbandwireless.com/story/bi...

Maybe the name will exist with a product line, but the company I think is like the 14-15 30 foot tall trees in front of the Richardson BNR/lab building..... dead gone kaput. The dead trees are a symbolic statement to drivers going by the building on the highway...

lol - they've not been sent reclamation yet?

No, that would cost money. Wait... Maybe the dead trees are stayed in CCAA / Chapter 11 proceedings? They have intrinsic value (firewood) and the bondholders are going to need all the assets they can liquidate to assure they get the maximum value back from their investments...

lol - sure, paper can be made from wood pulp, and printed with anything.

Good grief! I was going to suggest Phoenixtel as a name for any new company that might arise from the ashes of the NT debacle, but it's already been taken!

http://phoenix-tel.com/

I love their motto!

"Intelligence via diversification."

Does anyone expect business to magically come back under the Nortel name?

Who will give Nortel money now as they try and sell the whole farm as soon as they can.

I also have no faith in existing NSN gamble sweetened by almost half in government welfare to buy this catalyzing tanker. I also suspect Matlin Patterson would lose even more feeding this insolvent white elephant let alone the whole thing, that's funny.

Why Matlin Patetrson get involved to begin with? Why wait so long? Are they trying to salvage their interest or are they bluffing in desperation with impatience drawing to an anxious close.

They might wait for so long to see the light at the end of the tunnel of the economy, And waited so long to see Mike Z and his team finished cost reductioning of quarters 4Q08 and 1Q09 and also waited for so long to see that minumum one unit was for formally in sale by the control of a court judge in an auction. Due to they are relating only with the distressed companies, i can say if i had 9 B dollars i also involve in that process by june or july. i pray that by August there will be a new start for the last rounds of restructuring of Nortel whether new or the current one.

It's not because of the name, but yes, I think under the right circumstances Nortel could still turn around. It would likely begin a new life as the top of the tier-2 players instead of a member of the tier-1 vendor club, but that could be grown into something great if the conditions were right.

For starters, the board and the existing executives need to be purged. Almost all of the executives, at least two levels down. The leadership structure needs to be rebuilt with top talent, not B-grade GEniuses, their sycophants, and Nortel left-overs.

It's possible, but very unlikely to happen. Consider though, how much the other 2nd tier vendors (Sonus, Genband, MetaSwitch, Tekelec, etc.) would like to have a lot of Nortel's assets, mostly platforms and installed base.

Matlin Patterson might be the ideal kind of acquirer because it would take brutal restructuring to get Nortel right-side-up again and MP doesn't have a reputation for nostalgic compassion.

That is completely naive. Firing the top two layers of executives might be attractive punishment for those who put up with them, but it would throw the remains deeper into chaos and would not reassure customers.

Then what? There is no more room to drastically restructure as all divisions are teetering on collapse.

Short of a time machine, there is no putting humpty dumpty back together again. There is no going forward with Nortel.

NTInfidel - I did not say the top two levels should be fired on day one, however I do suggest that most of the top level go fairly close to day one. I believe a new Nortel would do just fine without any help from MZ, Choker, Lowe, Morin, Riedel, Carey, & Flanagan. I don't think they would be missed on the second day they were gone and in fact I think it would cause a fresh wave of energy across the company. I also think that - done right - it would definitely reassure customers.

Many a customer has long had to put up with the current and solidly entrenched clique of Absolute Masters. They just can't come out and say it.

>> Nortel Political Action Committee <<

Very interesting:

http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/committe...

MC

Anyone have any insights into what is happening with ENTERPRISE ?

The Choker is not saying ... you guys hear anything ?

MC

Earily silent from Norter Ent and NGS employees I know, I imagine any potential bidders are awaiting what happens with NSN bid July 24.

Sad state of a company where many (most?) employees come to this blog for any news or insight with what is going on.

Since there are rumours of a potential bidder(MP) for the whole company(all Business Units) to out bid the NSN Stalking Horse, I doubt you'll see anything announced for just NGS or ENT until July 24.

Hopefully once the NSN Stalking Horse process is finalized, the Ent Stalking Horse will be announced...hopefully....

I am in Ottawa. Sorry, until today I still don't know whether NSN will take all the CDMA people in Ottawa for this deal. Initially, it was about 800 people and there might be 200 left over. Later, some media reported that it might take all and set it as a research center for wireless network with growth potentail. So I am confused....

I had to do a double take when I saw this ad in the margins... Chapter 11... Chapter 11.... errrrr..... 11 Chapter ;>)

=====================================================

<<Ads by Google

<<Understand IP Telephony

Free 11 Chapter IP Telephony eBook. Guide to Enterprise Deployment.

ShoreTel.com/11-Chapter-VoIP-eBook >>

July 24th cannot get here soon enough for me. I pray it's NSN that buys CDMA...I'll take an 80% chance of having a job with NSN because I think for those of us in CDMA, there's no way we'll get better odds with anyone else. Good luck to everyone!

"good luck" makes me suspect you are even an employee with this ID too

It's a band aid... there are better telecoms to work with than gamble longer, and the good guys already know this

I think you're asking if I'm a current employee. Yes, I am. I work in the tower in Richardson. As proof, last week an e-mail was sent out stating that the fire alarm system in the tower would be tested this weekend.

Perhaps you're right and NSN is a band aid. Obviously if employees that go to NSN hope to hang on, they need to pray that LTE really takes off. I think most of us would rather go to NSN for awhile & then get laid off with severance in a better economy than get laid off right now without severance. I don't think there's much of a chance of another buyer wanting 80% of the CDMA employees so, from an employee standpoint, I think this is the best outcome. My 2 cents.

One of them tower people, eh. Call me TIC, but I'll need more proof than a mere fire alarm. What key is the acoustic guitar in the food court showcase?

LOL! If I remember, I'll check tomorrow.

Right now the intranet site has a story about a GSM-R win with Czech Railways.

I do occasionally wonder how that guitar is doing......

Hopefully new management will be able to do something better with the CDMA business than current "leadership" - or lack thereof. Fire Richard Lowe, his reports, and their reports for a fresh slate.

I heard Richard Lowe is going to NSN as well as part of the deal...So I guess no luck on new leadership atleast initially...

Yes..he can join Sue Spradley again as part of corporate management. Meet your new bosses, the same as your old bosses.

Doesn't surprise me.

1. Richard Lowe's number one priority is always the job security of Richard Lowe. That is why he lasted so long.
2. Sue Spradley was no genius at Nortel and she likely recommended Richard as one of her old cronies. I worked for Sue at various times.
3. NSN has both the good DNA of Nokia and the bad DNA of Siemens so don't expect them to always make good decisions.

"don't expect them to always make good decisions"

first bad decision being buying this EDC blue light special =)

He is not the leader of only CDMA, you know? if he goes, then who will lead the other businesses, GSM, IMS, MCS, UMTS, etc...

They got some other ex-GE idiots to run those businesses. Some of the businesses were moved from carrier to something called CV-ASS.

So Richard, Bruce, and many other self-described "leaders" and "executives" who use "Office of ..." as an email, have conveniently positioned themselves in CDMA, crossing their fingers MP doesn't buy it all, knowing they'll be the first to go.

Hopefully new management will be able to do something better
====
re
what new management?
Can you be more specific?

There is no more new management, they are trying hard and fast to sell off the tanker in pieces.

Management has always been a major problem. These positions were termed "hard to fill" even after so many insiders only.

Better heads prevailed with the dream team replaced by this green team missing in action during the telecom wars and none could do anything amid insurmountable woes that only progressed to the worse, then bankruptcy to total liquidation.

Today they try to selling the tanking farm after fraud, revisions, so many contradictions amid exorbitant pay practices it has become synonymous with a really bad joke.

Things only got more and more junior and keystone it seems. Fraud was their main downfall as orders ceased thereafter, revisions the icing on the cake. It was difficult to make sales to now difficult top sell tanking units.

Perhaps innovation and selling was beyond their grasp which only left cost cuts and remuneration regardless of outcome as the incentive.

They paid themselves almost as much as they got for their most profitable division to bring it to its knees and got almost half as much for UMTS, and paid more than half for PEC and Tasman. Jinxed gambles.

Even if they didn't go bust, just how much of a worse management could come next given these positions are not attractive and hard to fill. Aside form everyone loving to be CEO for what they pay.

There is no way now or money let alone credibility, it is over.

Not much left as they subsidize the white elephant's take over who's assets decline by the day and left for others to gamble with when, again,. better heads prevailed and could do.... nothing =)

=)

They paid themselves almost as much as they got for their most profitable division to bring it to its knees and got almost half as much for UMTS, and paid more than half for PEC and Tasman. Jinxed gambles.
=====
re
2 things
nr 1
How much they paid managers, CEO CFO?
It used to around $1 mill a year Nowadays it's $10-$20 mill even under BK protection!
nr 2
How much Nortel paid for acquired companies?
The ratio was 100x profits?
It must be a scam on its own. We pay you more you share cash back with us... must be!
PECS, who needs them?
Sorry guys working for PECS, you would be better off without Midas=Nortel touch.

Mike would have to go first. I couldn't trust anyone added under him to be competent, or able to effect change.

Thems the realities.

“If you’re assuming there are no additional bids because there’s no public disclosure, you’d be mistaken,” he said.

Obviously not worth better than 250 million with 100 financed and another 300 from EDC to make them lucky to even get this 650 mill.

Forget the days of 2B and 700M profits, look at today or more importantly tomorrow.

I would also think Alcatel would be in a better position for LTE than Siemens' gamble. A hoax of hype and fluff continues. Foolishly,

After having trouble making sales so many years they are now having trouble dumping business units, and if that isn't enough, the units are dramatically tanking to further sour anything this Murphy's Law evil empire touches, like Medusa, it turns to stone. Jinxed, cursed, needs a thorough torching and exorcism never to rise from the ashes again.

Thankfully gone yes but not soon enough it seems with the constant bad news hitting the fan right up to the upcoming fraud trials so little mention is made aside from us bellyaching a .curent board member who traded options for cash again has his law firm defending Dunn.

Counterpoints to Proto Points.

Obviously not worth better than 250 million with 100 financed and another 300 from EDC to make them lucky to even get this 650 mill.

CP-->> Sales of over 2 billion and Revenue of 700 million last quarter and you say lucky to get 650 mill. Everyone knows 650 was a steal. This is why you have MP interested. Why don't you just admit it?
The only reason. The only reason the value is so low is for one simple reason. Bankruptcy protection and the uncertainty associated with this bubonic plague term. Even though the business is declining it is still selling. It is still a cash cow. Huge installed base. The reason for the low ball is BP. The reason for BP lies squarely at the feet of four entities. Mike, The Board of Directors (influenced by Manley), Harper/Clement and McGuinty.
It really is that simple.

Forget the days of 2B and 700M profits, look at today or more importantly tomorrow.
CP--->>> The days of 2B sales and 700 millions were not the days of yesterday so to speak. They were last quarter. Current year 2009.

I would also think Alcatel would be in a better position for LTE than Siemens' gamble. A hoax of hype and fluff continues. Foolishly,
CP--->>> AlcatelLucent have more than enough of their own problems. They are in serious trouble. Too big. Too many employees. Too many fingers in too many pies. They will follow the fate of Nortel.

After having trouble making sales so many years they are now having trouble dumping business units, and if that isn't enough, the units are dramatically tanking to further sour anything this Murphy's Law evil empire touches, like Medusa, it turns to stone. Jinxed, cursed, needs a thorough torching and exorcism never to rise from the ashes again.
CP--->> Anybody under Bankruptcy protection has trouble dumping business. It is a fact of life. Check case histories. Noted exceptions are bolt turners at GM who get huge gov't bailouts and emerge with good pensions and job security out of bankruptcy protection.

Thankfully gone yes but not soon enough it seems with the constant bad news hitting the fan right up to the upcoming fraud trials so little mention is made aside from us bellyaching a .curent board member who traded options for cash again has his law firm defending Dunn.
CP-->> You spend every waking minute hoping the business, Name and people associated with Nortel disintegrate. I imagine when it is all said and done you'll have a big party and "revenge is a dish best served cold". Planning on lots of cold cuts?

The numbers are not over "last quarter" but year, read the topic again.

This is also not what they generate today, or more importantly tomorrow. This cash cow (was 80-90% EBT), has "gone out to pasture" as "everyone knows" in the article reiterated here many times, so why do you change the facts to senselessly antagonize.

As a greater point of insight, if it was such a "steal", why weren't more or higher bids rumored than just NSN with almost half this 650M price in EDC welfare (300M).

Bankruptcy is not the cause than result of their insurmountable woes after burning company paper. They don't even pay their employees they gag and fire as they loot the corpse.

Frauds deserve exposure and if you feel this is revenge, bon appetit as there is more to come at the upcoming trials. So stick your cold cuts in your ear and don't try to feed us a thousand flies just can't be wrong.

The numbers are not over "last quarter" but year, read the topic again.
----Are you feeling okay. What is the difference between last quarter and last year. Last year was only six months ago? Things have not changed much. Recession is still here. The business is making money. The business if bought by NSN will be a steal. Everyone knows it. It has become a steal due to BP. Wake up Man---

This is also not what they generate today, or more importantly tomorrow. This cash cow (was 80-90% EBT), has "gone out to pasture" as "everyone knows" in the article reiterated here many times, so why do you change the facts to senselessly antagonize.
---Wait and see what comes out of Q2. They dropped quarter over quarter but they still pulled in more money than any other Nortel LOB. Did wireless not have revenues of 700 million last quarter while they were in BP? What were the exact numbers? Do you read?---

As a greater point of insight, if it was such a "steal", why weren't more or higher bids rumored than just NSN with almost half this 650M price in EDC welfare (300M).
---I already told you. You don't listen. BP lowballed the bids. Most did not want to get their hands involved due to uncertainty. Nothing to do with how the business was doing. Your pal mcguinty is one of the reasons BP happened----

Bankruptcy is not the cause than result of their insurmountable woes after burning company paper. They don't even pay their employees they gag and fire as they loot the corpse.
----Bankruptcy protection IS the cause. Think about it. It scares potential buyers and customers. It is only human to be reticent and hesitate in these circumstances---

Frauds deserve exposure and if you feel this is revenge, bon appetit as there is more to come at the upcoming trials. So stick your cold cuts in your ear and don't try to feed us a thousand flies just can't be wrong.
--This is your problem and this is why I am sure you have some hidden agenda or were mistreated by Nortel. This isn't about Fraud. It is about BP. It is about thousands of people losing their jobs. It is about people losing severance. Nobody cares how or why it happened. It happened. The person who has lost their job or will lose their job doesn't care how it happened. It happened. It's done. Water under the bridge. You seem intent on blaming, living in the past and most of all pounding the dead horse. Just like a nag, bitter old woman.

"----Are you feeling okay. What is the difference between last quarter and last year. "

You are not worth debating to ask such a thing,

700 plus comments, mostly negative, mostly wrong or completely unprovable, speculative, or just plain nasty
and so, you must be going for a ribbon?
or even more accurately just a 'plant' from a competitor...

here's a sample of fairness....

"After having trouble making sales so many years they are now having trouble dumping business units, and if that isn't enough, the units are dramatically tanking to further sour anything this Murphy's Law evil empire touches, like Medusa, it turns to stone. Jinxed, cursed, needs a thorough torching and exorcism never to rise from the ashes again."

evans should smoke frauds like you out.

Ronald Alepian said that "no bankruptcy filing is imminent," but added that the company has engaged advisers to help it chart a way forward. "We remain focused on carrying out the restructuring we outlined to cut costs," he said.

Alepian said Standard & Poor's in November reaffirmed Nortel's ratings, saying the company "should be able to sustain adequate levels of liquidity in the next 12-18 months" despite difficult market conditions.

Alepian: expert. S&P: experts. There simply must be a vast conspiracy behind NT's Ch 11...

So, uh, wheres the proof? I don't need 700+ links and comments; 12-18 would be enough for me.

Meanwhile, here's a sample of Truth we all acknowledge:

Nortel is a recognized leader in delivering communications capabilities that enhance the human experience, ignite and power global commerce, and secure and protect the nation's most critical information..

Proto has been correct with a number of his posts, but his style is outrageous. His use of negative adjectives gets crazy at times as he creates suggestions of direct harm to Nortel employees.

This blog is clearly centered on bashing Nortel and often reads like a supermarket tabloid. Where this really crosses the line of basic decency is when there are posts with false accusations or when there are suggestions of threats or harm to be done to Nortel executives.

A healthy debate is fine. Dislike of Nortel executives is fine. I understand that given what has happened.

Outrageous?!

I have never threatened any executive or suggested "direct harm to any Nortel employees". This is a shameless and cowardly lie in slander.

I take pride in the degree of human compassion I idealize to an eccentric degree than remotely entertain doing harm to my fellow man. Good heavens, what's next?

May I suggest lies and fraud are outrageous instead.

How many of my posts have been correct? What percentage, and how greatly did they deviate from contemporary thought to deserve the merit of continued defamation and personal attacks over the years, all the way down... when so many thought bankruptcy was crazy

What I think is outrageous are lies with intent, patronizing to personally attack, totalitarian ploys to gag the truth, stalking, insults, fabricating, antagonizing, etc. these are outrageous than painstaking honesty, whether the hidden news is good or not.

My goodness =)

PS: Equating the suggestion of a poster to use pictures of Nortel execs for target practiice as an AAN-supported incentive for readers to threaten or harm Nortel executives isn't very objective reporting.

Global villagers abroad burn American flags and effigies all the time, global warming be damned, chanting "Death to America (and the global warming it causes)".

Do I sue the UN, now, or what?

Nortel is not mentioned in these sources because quite frankly, they are now irrelevant. Not news worthy. How much of Circuit City did you hear of in the press once they made it clear they were liquidating?

Alas.

smokeemout, I'll be a little more blunt.....you are full of sh*t!

The first time I read proto's posts I have to admit I got headaches because of the bad english. But after getting past that, I actually thought this guy was pretty insightful, and right most of the time. He doesn't sugar-coat and frankly that's the way I prefer it. What's the alternative....Z-speak? yeah right! I think we've all had enough of THAT bs!!!

So yeah, keep your head in the sand and pray you don't get your ass fired in the coming weeks/months :P

My (703) cents worth: Proto’s style notwithstanding, he has been spot on most of the time. You, on the other hand, are still smoking that Canadian bacon—stop and think about the brain damage you are causing yourself!...--bb

Thank you BB
You showed once again that the message is important not the messenger.
yes, Proto is a brave man. He did not hesitate to use his real name and real face to face the evil empire=Nortel in media.
In Proto's case it's so good to see the messenger delivering good message. It's not positive message about Nortel's crooks, but it was the true message and warning for investors and employees.
The message was
Don't trust Nortel's culture of deception and fraud.
Nortel proved him right.
Year after year Nortel reported false numbers, cooked the books, reported false improvements.
How long I fought the double digit growth in 2008?
False! Scam! Fraud!
Go back in time to find it!
http://disqus.com/people/yes4aapl/#main

Small correction: Nortel did NOT prove Proto right; Nortel's BoD and management proved Proto right!

In my world there is a huge difference between Nortel (the innovator) and Nortel’s management (the deliberator) Bravo Proto, keep it up...--bb

Are you saying he used his real name on this board and it was confirmed?
Is he an ex nortel employee?
Did he lose alot of money in the stock?
What's his beef?
There's gotta be something?

you bet

You didn't answer the questions.
Validate.

add
Proto is like Robert Verdun but stronger and more dedicated to Nortel's cause....
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id...

The tone was set April 25, 2002, a full seven years ago:

"Where is the CEO?" "That is one obscene golden handshake" "You have no credibility"
"Why do I have to get my disclosure from the media? My problem with all your documentation is that it’s heavy on rhetoric and short on numbers. You have to weed through masses of words to find the facts."

700 plus comments, mostly negative, mostly wrong
----
re
I see 775 posts
all of them perfectly on target and Nortel proved him right all the time.
You on the other hand, created your new ID just to post BS.

NORTEL

Fraud Made Simple

Nortel

Business Gone Simple

"beyond boundaries" (only with the OSC, RCMP beg to differ)
"this is the way" (for Lemmings)
"business made simple" (sell it but loot it first)

how the world shared ideas (nothing but rusty old junk)
what do you want the internet to be (we are still getting to web1.0)