Cisco Attacks Nortel’s Green Initiative

Okay. So the global village is inevitable. So I must use the most cost-effective materials to save its planet. What to buy.. hmmmmm... Cisco or Nortel? Nortel or Cisco?

Neither. Extreme Networks!

NEW DELHI, INDIA: Enterprises seeking power efficient, high performance network solutions for their IT infrastructure can look to Extreme Networks Inc., as the company's Ethernet LAN switches are more efficient than Cisco and Nortel when it comes to power consumption.

Direct comparisons of network solutions conducted by Extreme Networks reflect that a full edge and core network with a VoIP solution serving 2,000 users will save customers 46 percent of energy costs when compared to Cisco and 23 percent of energy costs when compared to Nortel.

I must wholly trust the article's veracity given its origin: India. Right? Extreme is 23% cheaper than even green-oriented Nortel.

Finally, Extreme's homepage visually defines the word "GREEDY" as a fat white male round-eye eating two huge hamburgers.

Nuff said. Case closed. Extreme Networks it is for me.

http://www.extremenetworks.com/index.aspx

Cisco should do more research before wasting their time and money. The Nortel 4548GT-PWR provides power to all 48 ports not 24 ports :-).

http://products.nortel.com/go/product_content.j...

Last night I saw a TV commerical by Nortel's buddy and peer, IBM, touting its BladeCenter as "green". I Googled it and lo! theres a talking cartoon owl offering nothing but the Facts:

http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/migratetoibm/whyi...

But, uh, first ya gotta give the talking cartoon owl your first and last name. Just a formality, folks. Keeps spam down.
Using the Internet made with IBM and Nortel parts saves us all more electricity than the one below-mentioned Cisco phone call.

Its all become so clear to me now.

PS: BladeCenter installation is outsourced to Handy Manny. He's cheaper, faster and100% CGI.

clever marketing

This looks to be a very clever viral marketing strategy from Cisco. The story has been picked up by AllAboutNortel, and its likely, if they search Google, that many readers will find out about it here...and then go on to read the many other stories about Nortel's decline!! Double whammy!!!



It might have been better to use a Judo strategy rather than Sumo strategy :)

Judo Strategy

http://www.people.hbs.edu/dyoffie/html/
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/2373.html
http://www.hbsp.harvard.edu/b01/en/files/academ...

Cisco accusing Nortel of "Gray" marketing? Now I know they are on the right track! Any company that can sell an Ethernet switch for $22,000 with a 90 day warranty, with lower performance, must be able to "TALK" a mean game. Cisco rep called me the other day and said "Cisco now offers Active Active for the 6500 CPU" I laughed and hung up the phone.

Come to think of it, the sound of coins falling to "Nortel Calculator in Action" suggests Nortel is merely penny stock.

I'd sue Cisco over that alone`.

never mind cisco, nortel blah blah blah

Am I the only one wondering why is the sound of a petrol chainsaw when he is holding an electric one?

Its not attached to some indoor emissions filter, there?!? Nah. Only Nortel would do that, indoors or anywhere. (See their "Project Chainsaw". It has nothing to do with logging).

The environmentally aware are be gleeful, cuz Cisco's mere simulating the creation of CO2 emissions in a studio turns modern folks off to Cisco stock en masse. And products, products too.

Hm. I'll bet Cisco's electric chainsaws use 50% more than Nortel's...

Pretty lame, Cisco's money would have been better spent keeping their 09 sales conference. This only points to one thing, Cisco realizes the tough market and energy savings by Nortel lead to loss revenue for Cisco. I'm glad to finally validate what Nortel is saying.

Yeah, its so obvious that Nortel got Cisco sweating green, namely with envy. And fear.
NT stock spikes everytime an investor watches one of the Cisco commercials and subsequently puts his money on True Blue, which is the New Green.

Wow, I have to congratulate Mark for fostering this community of such diverse knowledge and eminence. Well done!

You'll have to excuse my first steps as I'm not really into blogging or posting stuff, but I am a Nortel MEN employee and I've been following this blog for a few months hoping that it will give me some additional clues about the turmoil we are going through. It has been an interesting read, and I must say that I am really astounded by the depth and breadth of knowledge that some of the most frequent posters presume to have. The command they have of a diverse set of topics and the floral diatribe with which they engage in verbal dueling is simply mind-boggling. The ferocity with which they cling to their 'successful' predictions would make Nostradamus weep in shame. The beauty of their demagoguery overshadows anything the ancient greek could devise, admittedly because they spent most of their time running around naked with too many young men (the greek, not the respected posters, hopefully).

I feel that since I am surely a lesser being, I cannot say much that will change their universe or their enormous egos, so I won't. What I prefer to do is try to add some hilarity to this blog, which has become such a dark and sad place to be. Thus maybe some of my colleagues and/or fellow posters can lighten up their day and turn these black clouds into a fine spring mist with a scent of onions and elefant dung. Hint: I'm sure the wise old posters know elephant dung has magical properties and no, smoking it doesn't count. (Come on posters, just Google it and you can talk about it for days!)

I'd just like to close off this, my first commentary, with a warm hug of gratitude to all posters here. Thank you for the tidbits, gossip, insights and petty bickering. Some of it has been useful, some of it has been useless, but it all goes to show that you either love Nortel more than you care to know or you have some very, very, sad and empty lives.

As for me, I'll fade back into my lemmingness and try to hack it out in the daily struggle to win business. Since there is little chance that I will make it to top poster, I guess I'll have to work instead. But heck, I can always come back home every day and know that someone, somewhere will have hemorraghed information in a post that I just can't wait to read.

O tempora, o mores.

- HS

Well done HS.

Interesting to see the names of those who took offense, isn't it?

Obviously, you do not have Greek friends...--bb

no, i don't swing that way. sorry

I don't think you swing, period! -- bb

HS - why bother taking the time for such a meaningless post? No data? No opinions? No constructive thoughts? Just cynical venting at the people who are posting here? Nobody cares about your artistic prose. We want to know why we should continue to support the employee base of Nortel - which most people here do. When you post and say that you are a MEN employee, you are a commercial for MEN and Nortel.

Get back to work. Come back here when you have something meaningful to contribute. Don't send a message that Nortel employees are as 'empty' as the cabinet and BoD.

Truly heartwarming to see the responses a few simple phrases have conjured up. Perhaps my ramblings, purposeless as they might be, have achieved a goal.

It has been a long and tiring day for me, others have been better, but a few more minutes are worth it if they serve to grease the wheels... so:

@ANW: Thank you for your kind words. I will certainly do as you dictate and only post when you are happy with the content, as a show of gratitude for your support. I can tell you that all Nortel employees I talk to are energized and grateful to you and others here for standing up for us in so many ways. I don't know how we would carry on if it weren't for this crowd. We had been so childish to think that being professional would be enough...

@Proto: I see history is also your forte. I'm not surprised, but your value is wasted if you post here: you should be reaching a far larger audience. How wise of you to correct my mistake and put the word 'boys' in my mouth, this donkey will remember.

@BB: Demonstrating a strong moral character to be sure, who else would be able to defend the rights of Homo Somethings? You sir are a beacon to us all.

@Puddintane: Great link, I hadn't seen those two grumpy oldmen since my childhood, but they brought back a smile. Thank you.

@yes4aapl: Although some of your posts were strange to me, this one is spot on. Could it be that you are The One? Please keep a chuckle loaded, we're going to need some in the next few weeks...

Now, I really need to disconnect. But please excuse me if I come back here from time to time to prick your avatars with my pen. I'm sure you're all fine people back at home, but often it just doesn't shine through.

- HS

PS. I almost forgot: I have the solution to all of Nortel's woes. I'm just not going to give it away on my second post, am I?

HS, you wrote:

@ANW: Thank you for your kind words. I will certainly do as you dictate and only post when you are happy with the content, as a show of gratitude for your support. I can tell you that all Nortel employees I talk to are energized and grateful to you and others here for standing up for us in so many ways. I don't know how we would carry on if it weren't for this crowd. We had been so childish to think that being professional would be enough...


Professionalism would be great. Enjoy your lemmingness.

HS,

I strongly protest; not addressing ‘Notafan’ (who actually is a fan of yours) was totally immoral!

I don’t know which is phonier; your superficial ramblings or Web.Alive. Photo finish, to be sure…--bb

PS – Do keep us guessing. Jeez, what a drama queen (make that QUEEN).

i'm ok with HS not mentioning me. and i don't think he swings that way either. sorry

everyone is so happy at Nortel are they?
Liar, that's not what they say

the relentless patronizing in thanks allowed to post then go on pointing out posters is a dead giveaway.

did you really almost forget Nortel's salvation?
Like asking, "how do you keep an idiot in suspense", with the reply, " I will tell you tomorrow".
hahaha... puleeeze... seek help
or please stop insulting readers' intelligence

you are not provocative, but antagonistic and crazy

What "wow" as an opening line and never mind the patronizing.

Is this your contribution to topic while trying to sound sophist and evaluating others in your staged authority? Hilarious is right.

Your credibility is further blown with your pejorative sense of humor you do realize.

Let me enlighten you
The racial slander relative to contemporary ideals is profoundly absurd. You see, the Greeks shaped our western civilization with language, philosophy, mathematics, anatomy, the arts, sport, etc.., while the rest of the world lived like cavemen who engaged in not only in homosexuality (that sticks out in your mind with young boys of all things- how utterly sick) but cannibalism and incest with no language or clothes contrary to what you claim.

Did you learn anything from this because I learned what kind of people Metro Ethernet employs and your post made me feel like throwing up. Shame on you. shame. If you had any, Donkey!

Just because you lisp for a tech head does not make you artsy. You can not do anything you want, here without exposing truths from others opinions, and this was just a cowardly cheerleader subliminal hit and run by a total dufus / dork in my opinion.

Thank you for entertaining us here, Hilarious_Squint. We appreciate the joke.
I wish you guys in MEN the best. Mike Z wants to monetize you.
That guy was not successful in the Mer&Acq attempts.
He failed so many times.
It's good you are focused on your work and read blogs like this just for fun.
I, on my part, am much more interested in stock performance than in your 100G!
I get from these message boards what I need for myself, for my family and friends.
As Mark Sue estimated, MEN comes with a baggage, $500 mill in liabilities tied up to MEN. Looks like total deal would be much below $500 mill expected. If Mike does not sell MEN there will be no golden parachutes for others!
Best luck!
Mark Sue Mark Sue
The analyst added that Nortel’s distressed situation means potential bidders for its Metro Ethernet assets may offer distressed prices. As a result, Nortel could decide to sell its CDMA assets as well. But Mr. Sue is not sure if Nortel can sell more than half of the company without triggering its asset sale debt covenants.

And if it needed another problem, Nortel’s already underfunded pension ($1.1-billion at the end of last year) may have more than $500-million in liabilities tied to Metro Ethernet. But with roughly 53% of the $8.1-billion plan invested in equities and assuming a decline of 40%, Mr. Sue noted that the deficit may swell to $2.8-billion.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/105883-rbc-anal...

.

"Spew" is the word du jour of the Noble Thinker masses. They made Obama win - like AAN makes Nortel's stock slump most unfairly.

Yeah, always use adjectives in the superlative, hence: sorest losers spewing the saddest, vilest, darkest, emptiest, pettiest, weepiest, most astounding/enormous/presumptious demagoguery ever. Etc.

This lays the foundation to ultimately set Godwin's Law upon, then you can lay claim to the most prestigious Winning an Argument on the Internet prize (Google an Image of it, its out there).

Personally, I feel about as "bitter" toward Nortel as most grumpy hata puppets Waldorf and Statler despised everything about "The Muppet Show":

http://kathrynwithay.files.wordpress.com/2008/0...

what cheap overacting. how about an Oscar nomination.

you goofball, those were Cisco marketing interns wrapping up their student project

I'd except one only if Oscar were made from recycled Indian jute, Chinese rice boxes, and shredded Nortel memos printed on recycled stock.

When Cisco was pushing Green more than a year ago I had asked Nortel executives about marketing energy savings. Most said they did not want to go down that road as power consumption was way higher. Thats why the energy calculator is only on some enterprise boxes. Maybe they do better or not who knows. Cisco marketing is well known for pushing things that do not work so I do not trust Cisco either.

With sub $50 gas prices, who cares. Americans will go back to their spending ways.

This is all much ado about nothing. The reason that Cisco has responded so tongue-in-cheek is that Nortel's "Green' campaign has been a business failure. Nortel can not afford to fund the inventories of stocking distributors. It can not afford to fund any distributor / reseller programs - like extending payment terms.
Nortel's credit rating prevents any bank from extending short term loans to fund 60 or 90 day receivables from Nortel's distributors and resellers. In this credit environment, no bank is going to fund receivables from resellers in Mexico or Belgium or Turkey or India (especially India) for Nortel. Cisco has a self-funding program. They don't need the banks to fund programs for the distributors or resellers. That is why over the next 3 quarters, you will see a steady decline in the sales and gross margins of Nortel Ethernet Switches and Routers. And of course, no one in Nortel's executive management team understands anything about creating and driving indirect distribution - an expertise that Gary Daichendt demonstrated in Cisco' s hey day.

The people at Cisco know the Tolly Group very well. Cisco 'created' Kevin Tolly in the early 90s. Tolly was to provide 'independent' testing of performance. At the time, Tolly was literally working out of his garage. Tolly plays for pay and they understand what takes to configure tests. Cisco knew the results could be easily disapproved - and in a way that would make Nortel ridiculous.

Cisco has always stated that the reason that their products cost more is that they have better functionality, performance, and density. Now Nortel proves that claim - and shoots itself in the foot - by testing a product that claims to have 48 PoE, but can only power up 24 of them without costs. When a company buys a Switch with 48 PoE ports, they expect all of them to function at the same time.

Light-hearted ridicule is the best response to Nortel's campaign. The reality is that resellers and distributors are not buying Nortel's products so there is no need to respond to Nortel's claims in a manner that might make them look semi-serious. And of course, no one wants to be seen publicly kicking a vomiting puppy when they can simply destroy their resale channel distribution capability.

The problem with most Nortel business types and followers is that they still understand the reality of distributing and servicing products on a global basis. They still have that old Nortern Telecom DNA. Nortel's BOD had a chance to add Cisco DNA but decided that they wanted to stay with the steady hand of Admiral 'Gilligan' Owens. And the shareholders and employees are paying the price.

If you are going to blog , how about grasping your history please. This was well before Owens. Point to Roth please who said enterprise was a zero sum game for NT in 1999. Get a grip rookie. You obviously were not at the Cisco Sales Conference in Philly.

HRCE

“No one in Nortel's executive management team understands anything about creating and driving indirect distribution” – surely you jest :). Didn’t Hackney come out of GE’s famed school of ?!?!...You comment about Nortel’s DNA is spot on!

And, since you mentioned one of my favorite high-priced Cisco call girls (Tolly) let’s not forget the other; Fred McClimax (collectively, hereinafter known as ‘Cisco’s Spitzeretts’)…--bb

So what is Nortel's chummy business partner, China, doing?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080...

"China, the world's second-largest energy user after the U.S., is accelerating plans to cut fuel prices for the first time in two years as the nation's economy slows and oil costs fall, the country's top planner said.
Lower fuel charges will help stimulate growth in the world's fourth-biggest economy."

This will help Nortel. Global warming be damned. So what say Nortel's buddies in, say, India about this "global warming" stuff, anyway?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JK25Df0...

MUMBAI - A controversial United Nations report claiming "atmospheric brown clouds" generated by Asia are harming the world's climate, agriculture and health has created a storm of controversy in India, which has slammed it as part of Western pressure on Asia's efforts to counter global warming.

The brown cloud was more pointedly called the "Asian brown cloud" in an earlier United Nations Environment Program (UNEP) report in 2002, before protests from India and China led it to be changed to the politically-correct "atmospheric brown cloud".

The new report is part of US-led Western pressure on India and China to accept more responsibility for global warming and restrict greenhouse gas-emitting industries, say Indian officials. Asia's economic powerhouses, in turn, blame Western nations for being guiltier of poor global warming practices and refusing to put the brakes on industrial development.

The earlier report inspired sensationalist headlines such as: "'Asian brown cloud' casts shadow on US weather" (Chicago Tribune May 7, 2004); "'Asian Brown Cloud' menaces the world" (International Herald Tribune August 13, 2002) and "Asia's killer pollution cloud may be heading for Europe" (Evening Standard, London, August 12, 2002). "

Did anyone notice any smog over Beijing during the Olympic Games?

Well, then, case closed: Nortel supports green, period.

Americans are indirectly responsible. What about the tonnes of plastic junk toys that end up in dollar stores.

Where are these made - China? Where are the factories - China? Where are the chemicals spewed into the environment - China?

Now Who gets them made? Western corporations. Who buys them? Western consumers.

Take responsibility. Just shipping off the manufacturing does not make the West any greener. Bunch of hypocrites.

The West isn't forcing China to manufacture anything. The noble ancient races of Asia like money no less than the socialist Euro likes his 6 week vacations that require copious plane travel and result in peeing countless gallons of beer into the Mediterranian. Money smudged with CO2 existed long before the US.

And this Euro, in turn, was continuously offered by Nigerian natives local women of all ages for sex in exchange for my empty 5 gallon paint buckets. Not a single non-American on-site ever protested this noble custom, much less decline similar barters.

Plastic may be evil, but in bucket form it means steady income for the African who has one.

If anything truly bad can be said about them damn Yankees its that with gas falling back under $2, they're gonna stop giving much of a crap about their electric bills.

Cisco let some kids talk trash about "gaming" and "video" in response to Nortel's somber suits talking deep green?
Sure enough, I go to youtube and find Nortel offering up somber guys in suits talking deep green:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjqZ4t1fy2Q

"Nortel started its path to green 10 years ago. " Eric Lauzon, CIO Asia, Nortel.

G-g-golly. 10 years of green. Alas, he talks funny, so he must be stupid.

Instead check out the bada$$ background score on Nortel's green energy ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj8UzE7ahQE

Is that John Roese in the ad ?...
Lousy ads that's all I can say...Clearly Nortel is making Cisco thinks twice.

Why does CSCO even care? If I was CSCO I wouldn't even address a company that had less then 1/400th of my market cap.

It is sort of like Pepsi making an ad campaign against Faygo....

If Faygo had a better product that would pass a blind taste test.... I bet we would see the Pepsi add compaign the following day.

Wise Business Words....

"It's not that the fast eat the slow, or even the big that eat the small, it's the smart that eat the stupid."

- Steve Smith

No, pepsi wouldn't put up any adds, they would just buy the competitor.
If Nortel really had something that cisco wanted bad, cisco would have just bought Nortel by now.
I'll not be surprised if they end up buying some part of it in a relatively near future.
You have to realize these were not some serious ads running on TV or in wall st journal like "NT THIS IS THE WAY" :)
This is just a couple of kids playing . . . probably interns or something.

Um, the energy that chainsaw just wasted could've fed a Nigerian family for a week.

Mild. Hardly an attack by Cisco.

...and she looks and acts a tiny bit like Jennifer Aniston, who is high maintenance, according to Brad Pitt. Who is sooo hot. And a global villager.

That does it, I'm buying Nortel and Apple exclusively from here on in.

This ever so mildly cribs from the Apple commericals that have the hip gamer geek (literally) dressing down Microsoft, depicted as a shrill, even desperate lil accountant nerd.

yawn...cheesy production...could have had a better background score....why dont we see a comparison of their IP Phones as well..most of their 79xx series IP phones consume more Idle watts (approx. 5 watts more) than the equivalent Nortel phones. the numbers quickly add up if you have an mid-size enterprise. cherry pickin some blades and doing some marketing pranks..thats typical of Cisco.

To claim the "numbers quickly add up" in a "mid-sized enterprise" does not strike me as significant, if what you even claim is true of course. Especially if quality or features favor another let alone most importantly confidence in support, like they will even be around next year.

For example, for every 240 IP phones, this would consume 120W more power? Right? As much as a light bulb, where maybe Mike's experience with GE helped with this idea =)

This splitting hairs is hardly worth mentioning once then Nortel's PR traditionally announces anything it can so who knows why or how could they have missed more green IP phones, again, if this held any merit given their honesty or achievements.

The "marketing prank" as you call it is indeed a fitting term but for Nortel not Cisco. Nortel misled not comparing energy use for the same amount of work being done not Cisco. And like I said this was dismissed here early on. I wonder how customers will feel when this become public, maybe acquire that shareholder look about them.

Nortel took on the offensive on a desperate move that worked. However, Cisco has bigger bucks to advertise its counter claims with in audio visual proof.

Another Nortanic foolish move in face of what they claimed as untrue with their struggle to regain credibility long lost. Misleading with intent that makes it fraudulently unethical, without intent, incompetent or stupid, either way Nortel loses ...yet again.

And who's cheesy production, outsourced Nortel's or Cisco's products? wake up, why you yawn?

Nortel and Cisco use to spit at each other behind closed doors and Nortel could not have picked a worse sleeping giant in the boat they are in.

This is all just more bad news for Nortel. They should have thought about this earlier but since when have they ever done anything right,

Protosphere..admit it or not, Nortel has hit Cisco harder than they might want to admit. the Green thing is just the start of a strategic and planned move to offer customers more than just an alternative to Cisco..if you know what John Chambers boasted to the media that 'Cisco sells their products at 70% margins' then you can imagine how hard the customers get locked n squeezed...

That Cisco is now playing 'catch-up' shows how much they care about the environment, let alone the customers.

catch up....please. it takes 60+% GM's to make it in business today. Cisco playing catch up to NT? Right. You have no idea what it is to be like in their crosshairs. Ask Avaya.
Btw...what is Nortel's router and L2 share? 5%? Why bother versus 85%? Cisco has done more for philanthropy and charities than you will ever know. BTW. I am not a Cisco fan. You need a clue.

Actually assuming a 5 watt savings per phone, if you had 240 phones then you'd save 1200 watts, not 120, far from a mere light bulb. (But maybe several)

You must be a Cisco mole!!! NO ONE SHOULD LISTEN TO YOU!!!

You have serious issues.

“Don’t start a fight unless you know you can win” -- Sun Tzu.

Nortel’s ‘green’ campaign was a good idea and could have worked if they took the high road. Unfortunately, they picked on the school bully and now they will be paying for it…--bb

bb,

If you're going to quote people, the least you can do is quote them properly on not just quote what you think was said. The proper quote from Sun Tzu I believe you are referring to is:

"He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."

Otherwise how can we trust that everything else you say isn't distorted as well. Like the time you said you wouldn't post here anymore.

notsure, you used the word "is". How do you mean it? Purely, like Bill Clinton, or grossly distorted like every single post bb ever wrote?

You do realize that The Art of War wasn't written in English, right? That means there are multiple interpretations/translations of that quote to English, don't act like yours is the authoritative one. The important thing is that the meaning is preserved and both quotes mean essentially the same thing.

In other words, get off your high horse and stop using personal attacks as diversions.

Thanks DJ, but I can handle this one, easily :)...--bb

Here you again accusing someone of a personal attack just because notsure pointed out the fact that the quote bb used was not exactly written the way Sun Tzu said it.

Yet no mention of the fact that bb says that I am mistaken for expounding on the psychology of marketing,when if you read my piece again you'll notice that I don't mention a particular product the way bb points out the failure of Beta video.

My theory implies that if a company has been succesful in establishing themselves with a first to market idea and turning it into a name brand,then that is when it is usually next to impossible to knock off or out of people's minds.

Some examples are:

First fast food-McDonalds
First facial tissue-Kleenex
First soft drink-CocaCola

these are name brands that have shown staying power because they were successful with their first to market approach.

"it is usually next to impossible to knock off or out of people's minds."

Overseas McDonald's food is known to consist of genetically altered dead rats, Coca Cola is concocted from toxic chemicals, and Kleenex is typically packaged in, guess where, Third World sweatshops by orphaned handicapped gay girls.

Thing is, these examples don't sit back and preen about being Number One for x amount of years. They aggressively, continuously defend their market share.

1. "The way Sun Tzu said it" is irrelevant because he never spoke English. Thus refer to my original reply.

2. The fact that you made no mention a specific product has no bearing on bb's argument. You made a blanket statement that being first to market offers a path to success. Broadbandbill offered a counter point, citing a specific example. Thus he proved your argument wrong with this counter example.

3. You have provided specific examples of companies that did succeed, though since counter examples exist it does not justify your original blanket statement.

desk jockey


could you not at least have a little more depth to you,other than being a Nortel hater?

regardless of the fact that Sun Tzu did not speak English,bb's English interpretation of his quote was what notsure was referring to,suppose bb 's English interpretation of Sun Tzu's quote was indeed wrong you were more interested in accusing notsure of a personal attack rather than acknowledge a potential error on bb's part.

Furthermore if you want to play some kind mediator on this blog, then make sure that you cover both ends of the spectrum,that is acknowledge an inaccuracy from a well known Nortel hater like proto or yes4apple.

An example from yes4apple was that he stated that Nortel must address their $3b pension deficit immediately or face chapter 11,here is yes4apple's exact quote-

" You forgot to mention about $3 bill of Pension Fund deficit which Nortel has to address right away or face the CH11!"

yet after reading S&P's analyst Ari Bensinger's report on Nortel,he just states that he estimates that Nortel 's pension obligations will top the $250 million that he calculated for 2008 due to the declining asset performance of the fund.Granted Nortel will have to top the $250 million made in 2008,but nowhere does he state that Nortel will have to address the pension deficit immediately or face CH11 as yes4apple suggests.

You appear to calculate when and where you add in your 2 cents worth on Mark'
s blog when it supports your own point of view,yet you fall silent when it doesn't.

Yes4apple's assumption that Nortel must address their $3b pension deficiit is completely inaccurate,yet you were nowhere to be found on correcting his assumption on this?


The ball is now in your court,this is your chance to prove that your more than just anothert Nortel hater,or I'll know in the future where to categorize you.

Sorry that was a long post. I like posting in short form since I have trouble concentrating.

- I never claimed to be a mediator, I only point out things that are wrong when I know they are untrue. I can't speak for yes4aapl's numbers because I'm not a finance person and am not good with figures.
- Having said that, the fact that you accuse me of bias for merely pointing out the truth says more about your bias than it does for mine.
- I am not a Nortel "hater". I would prefer to be called a Nortel "realist", but if you choose to call me hater there is little I can do.

Yes4apple's assumption that Nortel must address their $3b pension deficiit is completely inaccurate,yet you were nowhere to be found on correcting his assumption on this?
-----
re
confirmed
it's accurate.
It's The Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions requirement.
The link to that source was posted here many times.
Paragraphs showing that were posted here and yet you shot your leg again.
We can guess how big the deficit is now.
It's more likely $3 bill or more and less likely its $2 bill or less.
In other words analysts who expect the deficit below $2 bill are wrong.
My updated info about PENSION DEFICIT was posted under
What Mark Sue was thinking when he set up Zero target.
http://disqus.com/people/yes4aapl/#main
Cameron said about half the pension plans OSFI oversees were in a shortfall position prior to this year, so are doing valuations annually. That means a majority of Canada's federally regulated pension funds will be required to do a valuation report at Dec. 31 this year, giving companies no leeway to wait to see whether asset values recover over the next year or two.
===
btw
The Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions or OSFI is an independent agency of the Government of Canada reporting to the Minister of Finance created "to contribute to public confidence in the Canadian financial system". [1] It is the primary regulator of federally-regulated banks, insurance companies, and pension plans in Canada.

notsure,

Indeed, I was only paraphrasing because the original quote sounds like bad English and there is enough of that on this blog. Also, that Betty Ford thing did not work out so well, as you may have noticed I had a major relapse over the weekend; back to Step 1.

However, regarding the validity as well as the accuracy of my comments, you can take that to the bank, which will not require a government bailout; I assure you. What bb knows is based on hard-core, street-level, battle-tested telecom experience spanning over a decade against competitors large and small, including Cisco. The end results are insights into what to do and, equally important, the wisdom of what NOT to do! In fact, I would argue the latter is even more important than the former. Just take note of what Gary (aka ‘Happily Retired Cisco Exec’) says about my comments.

Collectively, Nortel’s management has experience but lacks both insights and wisdom because they never really fought at the street-level; historically, their experience is limited to only supporting the ‘street fighters’ (read: flow processes).

The trenches are a whole new and a very different ball game for which they are not even remotely equipped to engage…--bb

bb,


that depends on how cheap in turn Cisco reacts to the Nortel campaign,the one thing that can not be taken away from Nortel is the fact that they beat out Cisco on being first to market with promoting the awareness of the ever increasing energy costs that companies are faced with in running their IT networks and with all the hype about going green,this is more likely to leave a positive impression when customers think of Nortel's ad campaign.

Cisco can counter Nortel's claims about their switches using less energy than their own,but there's a fine line that Cisco should be careful not to cross,otherwise customers may view Cisco's attack on Nortel's claims as an admission of guilt and further award merit to Nortel's claims.

That's the beauty of being first to market with an idea or concept,where challengers may be seen as trying to attack the advantage that a" first to market" has,or if another company tries a similar approach with their own campaign this can also be seen as an endorsement to the fact that the first to market has an idea that is favourably acknowledged by their competitors.

it happens all the time!

Psychiatrist,

You are mistaken!

It is a well-established fact that, for the most part, "First Mover Advantage” has not worked so well (Betamax anyone?). The ideal position to be in is "First-to-Growth Advantage”...--bb

broadbandbill,

Blue Ray triumphed over HD-DVD...both essentially being similar technologies...so First Movers do have an advantage.

Optimist, et al;

OK, let me end this argument once and for all: NORTEL HAD A FIRST MOVER ADVANTAGE FOR A CENTURY!!!! What good did it do? Cisco had First Mover-to-Growth Advantage (in the then emerging IP world). Had enough? …-- bb

Remember, bb, Cisco is where Nortel was 8 years ago. The bigger you get the harder you fall. Not to say that Cisco will fall, but when an org grows too big, like where Cisco is right now, it becomes harder to manage. Inefficiencies creep in, resources get wasted, and you end up with products that are far less efficient then their competitors. Marketing can get you so far. But once businesses realize that they can get a cheaper and more efficient product at a cheaper price, they will switch...no pun intended.

Its not by accident that Cisco chose to release the You Tube commercials in response to Nortel's energy commercials. They must have realized they are losing market share because of it Though it may be a trickle, it may not be long before it becomes a flood. As someone noted earlier in the blog as to why cisco has to respond to a company with so little a market cap, this may be the reason why.

Last 8 years, Nortel was bogged down by issues other than marketing their business. That's all behind now. The tide will turn, and when it does it will be fast.

A company that spends more than a billion on R&D (which is more than the GDP of half of the countries in the world) will not fade away so fast. Its preping...and will soon have its share of the cake.

See, this is what I see as the real problem: misplaced hope!

The last 8 years is only a reflection of a strategy that was off target (way, way off target) during the past 20 years.

Poster HRCE is clearly correct; that old Northern Telecom DNA is still deeply embedded in Nortel’s every nook and cranny and no former GE martial artists could ever non-chuck their way out of it.

In fact, the real tragedy is the fact they (GE’s) don’t even understand the problem in the first place, which makes them the (actual) real problem. As the old saying goes, if you don’t know what the problem is, than you have just discovered it!

Btw, you just crossed the ‘optimist’ event horizon; spaghettization is just ahead…-- bb

PS—Cisco wont fall so long Chambers is CEO; he’s too smart, too ambitious and way too crafty to ever allow it during his tenure. The Terminator, personified. Buckle up!

You mean:

"Whoever is first in the field and awaits the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight; whoever is second in the field and has to hasten to battle will arrive exhausted." - Sun Tzu

notsure, how should we interpret Sun Tzu's repeated use of the word "is".

This green campaign proved successful for Nortel but it was grossly misleading to the contrary for the same amount of work done.

Cisco just proved what was exposed right here on All About Nortel in an earlier thread.

Nortel quoted the planet's entire industrial energy consumption not just telecom and in the billions pf dollars, A fear campaign where they then went on to offer first year energy savings as a rebate to buy Nortel product instead.

heh, ironiic Nortel tries to manage others costs when they can't manage their own

Only way Nortel is greener than Cisco is with envy or management's inexperience it seems.

Is it rude to ask if Nortel is a chronic liar? Seems that not only is Nortel's accounting and forecasts lacking credibility but their very campaigns! I would go so far as to say this was a desperate and unethical slander with intent post one of the largest frauds while headed to insolvency and so many still there. I just shake my head wondering what's next in this hysterical saga.

How could Cisco sit back and disregard the fabrications than dismiss them, just as it as Gary had done. Seems they have more lies than truths transpire, ...wait, come to think of it, what truths?

How can you say "Nortel quoted the planet's entire industrial energy consumption"? Where did you learn this? Total industrial energy consumption is in the $Trillions. AGAIN, I THINK YOU A CISCO MOLE...BE GONE !!!

MAKE THAT YOU'RE A CISCO MOLE!

I am not a Cisco mole, why do you presume this?

Nortel asserts its products use 40% less energy and that the total Cisco energy tax is $6.1 billion over the past five years.

Not in the trillions /electrical energy.

for even more insight read more:
http://www.greentelecomlive.com/2008/09/17/fina...

Cisco energy tax is not a tax at all, false and misleading, simple as that, this is my point. Nortel lies.

In this video, it claimed Nortel's 4548GT-PWR only has 24 PoE ports. On a Nortel official document, it clearly specified that 4548GT-PWR has 48 10/100/1000 PoE ports:

http://www.nortel.com/products/01/passport/8600...

Who is spreading the FUD here?

"who is spreading the FUD here? "

yes who, let's expose the truth here too

This video never claimed "Nortel's 4548GT-PWR only has 24 PoE ports" as you claim but that Nortel powers only 24 of the 48 ports

Furthermore, the video "clearly specified" if they were to compare apples to apples by firing up all 48 ports on Nortel's box, this would require Nortel's "external power supply" which would make Nortel's power consumtion and numbers"way worse"

got it? rewatch the video to see if you missed this
If not, never mind...I do not want a reply

Protosphere, you don't know what your talking about (or your drinking the crisco coolaid too much). The 4548GT-PWR can power all 48 ports with POE, unles the power draw exceeds the internal power supply limits. If the power draw exceeds the internal limits, then the external RSPU (remote power supply unit) is required to bolster the available power.

In practice, you can run all 48 ports with Nortel IP phones without an RPSU. Depending on what you want to do with those phones (and the model phones you are using), the draw from the phones may exceed the internal capacity of the 4548GT-PWR and then you are forced to buy the RPSU.

If you were to compare apples to apples, and draw more power from the Cisco switch than could be supplied internally, would you even have the option to plug in an external power supply to power the additional devices?

Cisco's doesn't pump Koolaid, they are honest and have done well.

Nortel lies and has proven to feed us even more kool aid with this Cisco Energy Tax campaign's nonsense. ... false and misleading advertising, and Cisco just proved it here

Nortel's draws more power than Cisco's when all 48 are enabled in standby or under load period.

Nortel's extra power supply is required is the point when comparing apples to apples. Nortel lies with zero credibility and I can cite endless more examples beyond this if you like to talk koolaid that kills.

Cisco does not need an extra power consuming supply to power their 48 ports to save up yo 40% more energy, That's horsefeathers - AKA lies.

Also, how in the world would the Cisco switch require even more power than it was designed for as you claim? The most obvious is usually the most truthful here.

Just compare where younger Cisco to older Nortel is headed for more proof. Nortel is toast. Cisco makes billions/Nortel loses. Its a poor sport ploy while going down for the count by these frauds.

Exposing the truth burst bubbles in Cisco's energy tax that is no government instituted tax at all to boot... what terms and what misleading lies from inception, from the intrisic core exposed by extrinsic examples by a successful and honesy company that will be around to service their product

Yah but my dad is stronger than your dad

Yah but Nortel is toast baked solely via green solar energy.

"Cisco Energy Tax campaign's nonsense" If you don't like a campaign go purchase an energy meter and compare draw from an idle 55xx or even more with a 45xx vs a 3750. It's a fact that the 3750 draws more. If were going to call someone misleading, why would we ignore the statement that 'Nortel will only power 24 of the 48 ports'. NO as has been corrected, Nortel does not support full 802.3af Class 3 power draw on all ports (but Nortel does power all ports), so if you are a business like I've never seen and are putting 48 devices on your switch that all draw 15.4W per, then yes you'll need an RPSU to do that. However we all know those are slim odds, a difference yes, but most customers would in fact save on their bill for electricity and heating by running the Nortel ERS, as outside that very specific scenario - The Nortel will come out ahead... Screw the calculator and put a watt meter on it, then argue your points. Good Luck with that.

Also while were pointing out differences, Nortel did a better job designing the Power utilization function of their switches. The Cisco puts out power based on a power classification and reserves that much power for that port, where the Nortel simply provides the amount of power required by the device (similar to a wall outlet in your house).

Made my points without a single personal attack on anyone, imagine that. I'd read the comments more often if this was the rule rather then the exception.

"Just compare where younger Cisco to older Nortel is headed for more proof. Nortel is toast. Cisco makes billions/Nortel loses. Its a poor sport ploy while going down for the count by these frauds."

Speak english much?

LOL!

Protosphere,

Every company has its ups and down, you can see that in this financial turmoil today. But that does not mean a company that is down on its luck will not turn around. A good example would be Apple. Nortel is still known for the wonderful work it does in its R&D. Unfortunately, the scandals involving accounting have been a distraction preventing it from leveraging the products that come out of it. But now that these issues have been put behind, the focus will be on marketing the products.

Nortel and marketing products in the same sentence? You really are an Optimist…--bb

Well, bb, if NT has been poor at marketing so far, does it automatically mean its products are bad?. Poor marketing can be fixed, but not vice-versa.

Never said NT’s products are bad, they are top of the line. However, marketing, just like engineering, is also part of any corporation’s DNA. Texas Instruments, AMD, others have great R&D but it is Intel’s marketing machine that is kicking their silicon-based @$$ into sub-par players.

Nortel never paid attention to marketing because they used to own the (telecom) channel, which they lost to the likes of Cisco. Adding marketing where it did not exist before is akin to a sex change; takes a lot of hormones and a long, long time…--bb

Do you not understand that "energy tax" is a marketing line? It's not a real tax, and only an absolute fool would believe otherwise. Give it a rest.

You know, as much as I despise you Protosphere, I should perhaps admit that just maybe you didn't understand "energy tax" because English may not be your first language. If that's the case, my apologies. If not, please refer to my first comment and let it stand as-is.

24 ports are typically reserved for.... developing countries like Nigeria.

Plus the port lights do turn green when linked and "enabled".